Moonkin Beginner Guide (obsolete; use the TTT article now (in my sig)) - Page 13

Poromu · 07/31/09, 5:19 AM

Originally Posted by Miim

Has anyone done calculations on how good the mana regen portion of the 3.2 Owlkin Frenzy is?

Assuming each proc goes a full 10s duration w/o overwriting, you'll get 350 (349.6) mana back.

The rest is very dependant on the encounter and I would think for most fights it could become on par with Dreamstate or Moonglow. But there are a lot of fights that don't do direct dmg that isn't avoidable.

Zumo · 08/01/09, 12:25 PM

Hello, first thanks alot for the original post its been really helpful for me being pretty new on the raiding scene, however I have a few questions regarding some of the points and I hope you could help me make sense of them.

Currently my Balance set consists of a combination of Tier 7 level 10man/25man raid drops and some heroic drops. The only set pieces I have are the T7.5 gloves and T8 legs. With this balance set im sitting at 1800 SP, 178 Hit and 302 Haste in Moonkin Form obviously. Currently all my gear isnt enchanted/gemmed because the gear im wearing was just collected as offspec stuff when I was resto.

So my question is until I have access to some better gear that gets me to the "soft haste cap" and round-about the hitcap should I gem to hitcap/soft haste cap, this would result in most/all of my gems being raw hit/haste and no SP gems or should I just gem to hitcap and the gem the rest as Spellpower? Note that I am a JC so have access to prismatic gems. Im also planning to make the Twilight Serpent trinket (JC) that would only mean i'd only be 17 hit rating off the cap.

Thats my main problem really, but im also slightly confused by the whole GCD idea that in this case relates to the 'haste soft cap'. If anyone could explain this concept to me or knows any sites that explain it in a bit of detail it would be appreciated.

Last thing, I apologize if my questions seem a bit stupid to you guys but im still learning this side of the game and determined to get my head around it, ive read the OP in great detail and still confused a little so feel my questions are valid. Thanks for your time

shyfter · 08/01/09, 2:27 PM

alright ive read most this thread and ive tried the different rotations people have been saying but i just cant seem to break 4kdps and im in 5/5 conq gear -_-
my best rotation is the following

ff/is/mf then wrath spam till eclipse procs
once eclipse procs i switch to starfire spamming, with the last starfire of the eclipse duration having a IS right behind it, along with a moonfire refreshing those dots, then i resume wrath spamming till the next proc of lunar eclipse.
if i dont get an eclipse proc during the rotation of course i pause a moment to refresh dots then continue using wrath.
On bosses i throw in starfall during the eclipse to pretty much gurantee a 100% up of NG and i have my pets out at every chance they are available.
I am hit capped, haste capped, 2400+ spell power and 23% crit while in moonkin form, but it also seems my starfires hit alot less then others, reg around 7k and most crits are only for 12k when i hear of others getting 17k+
just wondering if anyone might be able to shed some light on why my dps seems so low though
thanks for any help

Celdhyrean · 08/01/09, 9:24 PM

@zumo : don't gem for haste, spellpower is always better than haste or crit.
Regarding the GCD and haste soft cap : actually, what is called the haste soft cap is the point at which wrath goes under 1s. Wrath is a 1.5s cast time, and as such cast time and GCD are the same up till that point. Under 1s cast time however, the GCD doesn't follow anymore (it is capped at 1s), and as such you won't be able to lower Wrath's cazst time below 1s. (there are some additional times losses due to how the queuing system works too)

When looking at instants, there's no cast time but only the GCD. That GCD should mostly behave the same than for wrath with regards to haste (though i'm not sure the GCD of instants is affected by NG).

@shifter: when doing the solar rotation, you want to keep casting SF after the Eclipse ends (and after having refreshed IS naturally). Wrath is cast only when you want to proc Eclipse, ie a short time before the iCD ends.
7k seems fine for where you are, 17k+ comes either from gimmickfights or lucky procs that work together (or maybe a full Ulduar 25 + hard mode geared moonkin). Though if your normal hits are at 7k, then your criticals should be at least at 14-15k.
There's also no real point to keep 5 T8 pieces on, you want 4 for the bonus but there are a number of offset pieces that are better compared to individual T8 pieces. (maybe you simply haven't been able to get them)

All those are relatively minor points though and don't explain the fact that you don't manage to get over 4k. A WWS log or whatever would be nice, because the only things that are left are time spent casting, wehter you move to much or not and that sort of stuff.

shyfter · 08/02/09, 12:56 PM

Starfire
dmg done: 3378169 44% done
average hit: 80 - 8341dmg = 667347
crit hits: 165 - 16429dmg = 2710822

Wrath
dmg done: 2346323 30.6% done
average hit: 269 - 4118dmg = 1107861
crit hits: 130 - 9526dmg = 1238462

Insect swarm
dmg done: 752573 9.8% done
ticks average: 520 - 1447dmg = 752573
uptime: 17:26 (14.4%)

Hurricane
dmg done: 490540 6.4% done
average hit: 354 - 906dmg = 320984
crit hit: 120 - 1413dmg = 169556

Moonfire
dmg done: 448518 5.8% done
average hit: 39 - 232 = 9077
crit hit: 15 - 605dmg = 9081
ticks average: 291 - 1478 = 430360
uptime: 14:46 (12.2%)

this was for the 4hr raid duration with my total being only 7967725dmg, doing 3.31% of our total dmg and running 4.6kdps for the entire night combined when our other dps for the entire night ran 6k+ dps

Poromu · 08/02/09, 1:55 PM

You can't really take overall damage seriously, it includes trash and short wipes. Analyze bosses on an attempt to attempt basis.

Altiris · 08/02/09, 3:42 PM

I can't fix your damage because I have no idea how many other things you're doing wrong, but:

Cast Starfire during Eclipse and ALSO during Eclipse cooldown (the 15 seconds after Eclipse fades that you still can't proc Eclipse... get an addon like SquawkAndAwe if you don't have it already).

Make sure you use all of your cooldowns as much as possible. Don't send your treants out to die, but don't be too careful and not use them at all. ~30,000 damage for one GCD is always worth it. Starfall is less damage, but still very worth it.

Again, don't look at overall damage, just damage from boss fights. Trash DPS simply doesn't matter and will not give you a good idea of how you are doing.

Zumo · 08/04/09, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Celdhyrean

@zumo : don't gem for haste, spellpower is always better than haste or crit.
Regarding the GCD and haste soft cap : actually, what is called the haste soft cap is the point at which wrath goes under 1s. Wrath is a 1.5s cast time, and as such cast time and GCD are the same up till that point. Under 1s cast time however, the GCD doesn't follow anymore (it is capped at 1s), and as such you won't be able to lower Wrath's cazst time below 1s. (there are some additional times losses due to how the queuing system works too)

When looking at instants, there's no cast time but only the GCD. That GCD should mostly behave the same than for wrath with regards to haste (though i'm not sure the GCD of instants is affected by NG).

@shifter: when doing the solar rotation, you want to keep casting SF after the Eclipse ends (and after having refreshed IS naturally). Wrath is cast only when you want to proc Eclipse, ie a short time before the iCD ends.
7k seems fine for where you are, 17k+ comes either from gimmickfights or lucky procs that work together (or maybe a full Ulduar 25 + hard mode geared moonkin). Though if your normal hits are at 7k, then your criticals should be at least at 14-15k.
There's also no real point to keep 5 T8 pieces on, you want 4 for the bonus but there are a number of offset pieces that are better compared to individual T8 pieces. (maybe you simply haven't been able to get them)

All those are relatively minor points though and don't explain the fact that you don't manage to get over 4k. A WWS log or whatever would be nice, because the only things that are left are time spent casting, wehter you move to much or not and that sort of stuff.

Thanks for your response, can someone just confirm this? (see my original post few posts up, post #182)

Cheers

EDIT - The part about gem choices, not GCD, that makes sense to me now.

Jezz · 08/04/09, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Zumo

Thanks for your response, can someone just confirm this? (see my original post few posts up, post #182)

Cheers

EDIT - The part about gem choices, not GCD, that makes sense to me now.

Yes, the current gems (and I assume the new gems will be on a similar scale) provide either:

19 SP or 16 Haste

The 19 SP gem is superior even though haste provides slightly more per point before the soft haste cap.

• Hamlet · 08/04/09, 12:47 PM

Pasted in 3.2 updates. Also only one version of the spreadsheet up now. Further updates may come in the form of a TTT article I'm drafting now.

Elonder · 08/04/09, 2:41 PM

Deleted

Aisulana · 08/04/09, 7:47 PM

First, I did do a search before asking this, but forgive me for kinda sucking at searching forums if I missed that this has already been asked. With 3.2 live, what are the new priorities in stats? Obviously you still want to be hit capped, but since solar eclipse gains more benefit from haste and lunar gains more from crit, and now we will be aiming to use both procs, what should my goals concerning haste and crit now be? Should I still be aiming for my haste soft cap (w/nature's grace)? I would assume so, but I'm just trying to figure out what my ratio of haste to crit should be. Please correct me if I've stated anything incorrectly. Thanks!

Octonge · 08/04/09, 11:40 PM

Under the post-3.2 Eclipse system, I've been noticing that sometimes either due to poor luck, time spent moving, or a target switch I'm left with about 6 seconds on my lunar eclipse cooldown without having triggered a Solar Eclipse. In this case, is it better to continue as normal and keep trying to trigger a Solar Eclipse, or is it better to switch to casting Wrath early?

Casting Wrath without the chance of an eclipse will be a damage loss, but a Lunar Eclipse will be better than a Solar Eclipse. For my current gear, WrathCalcs has the margin between the DPET of an eclipsed Starfire with Moonfire and an eclipsed Wrath with Insect Swarm is 396.28. The margin between non-eclipse Starfire with Moonfire and non-eclipse Wrath with Insect Swarm is 257.68. I'm not sure how to figure out if the loss of going with the lower DPET non-eclipse Wrath is worth the increase of the Lunar Eclipse, especially since the actual time spent in either part is hard to determine.

I've only done 10-man Beasts of Northrend and a heroic 5 man so far. This may be less of an issue in a 25 man raid with a fully debuffed target, but I can still see it happening due to movement.

Ranghar · 08/05/09, 4:39 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

The Eclipse Rotation

You will generally operate in a four-step cycle.
1) Pre-Lunar. Cast Wrath until the Eclipse buff appears (have some mod that will make it very obvious when you gain the buff).
2) Lunar Eclipse. When you see the buff, finish casting your current Wrath and then cast Starfire for the duration of Eclipse.
3) Pre-Solar. When Eclipse fades, continue casting Starfire. Note that a Starfire only gains the benefit if it is fully completed while the Eclipse buff is up, so if you only have time for a partial cast, your Eclipse is effectively over (and you'll typically refresh some DoTs here, see below). Cast Starfire until the Eclipse buff appears.
4) Solar Eclipse. Cast Wrath for the duration. Continue casting when it ends (with DoT refreshes as before) to loop back around into step 1.

I think it can be phrased in more simple way, as your description is a bit too complicated. What about:
Cast Wrath until Lunar Eclipse buff appears, then switch to Starfire.
Cast Starfire until Solar Eclipse buff appears, then switch to Wrath.
Short and easy to follow, in my opinion.

Erdluf · 08/05/09, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Octonge

Under the post-3.2 Eclipse system, I've been noticing that sometimes either due to poor luck, time spent moving, or a target switch I'm left with about 6 seconds on my lunar eclipse cooldown without having triggered a Solar Eclipse. In this case, is it better to continue as normal and keep trying to trigger a Solar Eclipse, or is it better to switch to casting Wrath early?

A simplistic analysis suggests no. Let w = 5-seconds of non-eclipse Wrath. W = 5 seconds of eclipsed Wrath. s and S represent SF (non-eclipse and eclipse).

To keep it simple, I will assume it takes on average 5 seconds to proc either Eclipse. For the rest of your fight your nukes will average either

sWWWwSSSsWWW ...
or (if you decide to switch early)
wwSSSsWWWwSSS ...

with the string truncated at some unknown point in the future when your participation in the fight ends (for better or worse).

Possible differences in the strings (depending on where the truncation occurs)

s-w, sW-2w, s2W-2wS, s3W-2w2S, s3W-w3S, 3W-w2S, 2W-wS, W-w

for a long fight each of those is equally likely. The sum of those differences is

5s15W-11w9S

So the trade off is

5 periods of non-eclipse starfire + 15 periods of eclipsed Wrath
vs
11 periods non-eclipse Wrath + 9 periods of eclipsed Starfire

(The average period for these differences is 5/8s).

In most cases, the difference between Eclipse DPS and non-Eclipse DPS is substantially larger than the difference between SF DPS and Wr DPS (exception: high haste levels and/or high latency). Six extra seconds of even the wrong Eclipse is more valuable than four extra seconds of SF.

This ignores wrath travel time (which provides advantages for trying to proc Lunar) and also the possibility that you actually proc'd Solar at the same time you decided to give up trying (meaning your switch to Wrath was perfectly timed, giving you one more eclipsed-Wrath). I don't think that is enough to change the conclusion at 5-6s left on the lunar cooldown.