Elitist Jerks Moonkin Beginner Guide (obsolete; use the TTT article now (in my sig))

 09/01/09, 1:52 PM #301 Janraea Don Flamenco   Janrael Tauren Druid   Dunemaul Engineering I think that the original post of this thread is drastically undervaluing engineering - I have it as equivalent or better than other professions at high gear levels. This math will all be rough, since I'm using the valuations in the front of the thread, instead of the sim, but: The current logic is that trading 47 sp and 23 haste for an 'on use: 340 haste' is a loss, because 340 * 12/60 * .9 is less than 47 * 1.4 + 23 * .9; but the logic (and the sim I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong) assumes that 340 haste rating for 12 seconds per minute is roughly equivalent to 68 haste rating. With a modern cycle, this is *far* from the case. Haste actually has two values - the value during solar and the value during lunar (after the soft cap). The solar value is drastically lower, because any time ng is up haste has zero value. So the net value of haste (ignoring cancelaura macros) is (NG_downtime * x + x) / 2 (x is the value of haste during the lunar eclipse.) The values in this thread put that at .9 (which has been reasonably close to my valuation in the sim most of the time). Let's assume a 40% crit rate for a lower bound here (raid buffed). NG uptime with 40% crit rate is in the realm of 78% for wrath spam, so x is 1.48; with a 50% crit rate, that gets to 1.57. Now, if you use hyperspeed only when lunar eclipse procs, you should be hitting it more like every 70 seconds, instead of every 60 on average, so the value of the accelerator at 40% crit is 340 * (12/70) * 1.48 = 86. The value of 47 sp and 23 haste comes out to 86.5 using the values from this thread, so that's obviously comparable; with 50% crit rate, the accelerators are worth 91.2. I think hyperspeed accelerators would need to be added to the simulator to get a *real* value (use only in the first half of lunar eclipse, on cooldown), but I feel comfortable enough on the basis of this napkin math to disagree with the OP's assertion that "Engineering and Skinning are weakest, both giving less benefit than 46 spellpower." Notes: I've ignored the value of the rocket boots, since some people will doubtless prefer minor run speed enchants over 24 crit rating and 5 minute rockets. I think it's a worthwhile trade for most fights, but I can't easily quantify it. HSA also has high value on aoe, not that anybody cares much. Hitting HSA before spamming hurricane gets two hurricanes hasted, which is longer than most trash lives. And rocket boots are awesome. On the other hand, I'm actually starting to run into the haste cap on *starfire* in the shorter fights now - there aren't enough separate lunars to use all my cooldowns unless the fight lasts at least 8 cycles (4 minutes), so if it's shorter than that, I have to use a haste pot while my [Fetish of Volatile Power] is up. Last edited by Janraea : 09/01/09 at 2:06 PM.
 09/01/09, 3:29 PM #302 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis It's a good point, I think, it's worth looking into more. One of my next projects was going to be some better analysis of current trinkets, and so I'll probably be playing with the value of haste during Lunar in the spreadsheet. I'll have a better idea of how to quantify Hyperspeeds then, and it's probably more worthwhile to wait until I get that done than to post napkin math on the forums. A problem is that uptime drops signficantly if you sync with Lunar--your value of 70s is quite optimistic; in the sheet now, average cycle length is over 40s (although this is before the phenomenon of Lunar truncation with a macro/addon, which adds an interesting twist). Hyperspeed for Hurricane is worth mentioning (and you can already get two Nature's Graced Hurricanes from one Starfall), but I don't think AoE winds up being important anywhere in Coliseum (will confirm after Anub'arak tonight). e: that reminds me, there really is very little AoE in Coliseum. Maybe I'll drop Gale Winds when I respec soon for 2T9.
09/01/09, 4:10 PM   #303
Janraea
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Dunemaul
 Originally Posted by Arawethion It's a good point, I think, it's worth looking into more. One of my next projects was going to be some better analysis of current trinkets, and so I'll probably be playing with the value of haste during Lunar in the spreadsheet. I'll have a better idea of how to quantify Hyperspeeds then, and it's probably more worthwhile to wait until I get that done than to post napkin math on the forums. A problem is that uptime drops signficantly if you sync with Lunar--your value of 70s is quite optimistic; in the sheet now, average cycle length is over 40s (although this is before the phenomenon of Lunar truncation with a macro/addon, which adds an interesting twist). Hyperspeed for Hurricane is worth mentioning (and you can already get two Nature's Graced Hurricanes from one Starfall), but I don't think AoE winds up being important anywhere in Coliseum (will confirm after Anub'arak tonight). e: that reminds me, there really is very little AoE in Coliseum. Maybe I'll drop Gale Winds when I respec soon for 2T9.
With the macro, my cycle has averaged ~37 seconds; I could probably do with a bigger sample size though; the variance in my data is higher than I'd like (>2). In any case, your 40s sounds reasonable for a macro-less rotation (and I'm sure you got that from strong data). Either way, my estimate was optimistic, I'll correct it here.

A 40 second rotation with 40-50% crit should get you 75.5-79.8 value points, which loses to the other professions slightly.
A 37 second rotation with 40-50% crit gets 81.6-86.3, which approaches even with jewelcrafting/bs/etc.

So without the rocketboots enchant, engineering doesn't really offer any bonus over the more normal professions, but is reasonably competitive.

I should have pointed out that the margin of error on my numbers is fairly large; it's truly napkin math. I worked backwards from sim-produced values that may or may not match the stats I assumed later. If I have time later I'll try to hack the accelerators into the sim.

Last edited by Janraea : 09/01/09 at 4:16 PM.

09/01/09, 4:16 PM   #304
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Janraea With the macro, my cycle has averaged ~37 seconds; I could probably do with a bigger sample size though; the variance in my data is higher than I'd like (>2). In any case, your 40s sounds reasonable for a macro-less rotation (and I'm sure you got that from strong data). Either way, my estimate was optimistic, I'll correct it here. A 40 second rotation with 40-50% crit should get you 75.5-79.8 value points, which loses to the other professions slightly. A 37 second rotation with 40-50% crit gets 81.6-86.3, which approaches even with jewelcrafting/bs/etc. So without the rocketboots enchant, engineering doesn't really offer any bonus over the more normal professions, but is reasonably competitive.
That seems reasonable at first glance, although I still wouldn't recommend Engineering over other professions, as it will quickly drop in value anytime you can't maintain a tight rotation.

If you're very mathametically inclined at all, you shouldn't really be using the values listed in the OP, which are just zero-th order estimates based on my gear at the time I wrote it. Try familiarizing yourself with the (attached) spreadsheet. Also, for a more detailed post, look here: Moonkin TTT Article pre-publish draft .

 09/02/09, 3:09 AM #305 Yauzers11 Glass Joe     Moonkinman Tauren Druid   Lightninghoof Hey is the T9-2 bonus bugged cause I just got it and I also have the Glyph of Starfire. When i get deeper into my rotation and i refresh my Moonfire it doesn't add the 3sec like it should.
09/02/09, 9:08 AM   #306
Fonzey
Von Kaiser

Troll Druid

Stormreaver (EU)
 Originally Posted by Droo. I'm new and it's my first post, so pleease don't kill me. lol but i've checked over the balance glyphs and talents time and time over, and i can't work out which glyphs really compliment each talent and spell. I mean like the glyph of monsoon when you have the minor glpyh of typhoon. Is 3 seconds really worth it, and is the minor glyph even really that good? i often use typhoon when the tank loses the aggro and i need to get away from mobs but i've been thinking about each glyph and asking anyone experienced in it... does it help? does it actually make a difference? and does your guild prefer you using the pushback version? the guys in my guild to me to keep it as it helps healers who have aggro. Also, i use glyph of entangling roots to keep the loose mobs down for longer, but is it worth it? What glyphs would you recommend?
Personally I run with Typhoon unglyphed for the likes of bombots on Mimiron, adds on IC "Medium" Mode p3, Scattering exploding flowers on Freya - etc etc. I rarely use it as part of a DPS rotation (sometimes pop it if I'm moving or when in the Yogg brain illusion) but not enough to warrent removing the knockback - used properly it can be a life saver.

Entangling Roots is a big waste of a Major glyph in a PvE environment. The very first post of this thread explains what majors to run with:

Major Glyphs: the best three for single-target DPS are Insect Swarm, Moonfire, and Starfire.

Some people like to use Glyph of Starfall, as it stlll gives some single-target DPS contribution, and it's a very strong AoE spell to have available more often. If you want to use it, replace Moonfire (if you have 2T9, replace Insect Swarm instead).

 09/02/09, 7:20 PM #307 Marodex Glass Joe   Marodex Night Elf Druid   Proudmoore (EU) Efficiency question Hello there, yet again a newbie poster here. I guess my issue is the same as all the other new people posting here: The sub-optimal amount of DPS. Here is a log of our raid on Sunday: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis The reports for Hodir and Razorscale are not interesting due to the randomness of the dmg buff at Hodir and my task at Razorscale. Unfortunately on the other kills my dmg was quite insufficient - as far as I am concerned. I still do lack some items for different slots such as my 1st trinket which is a healer trinket which will be replaced by the Abyssal Rune tomorrow. (I just hope it drops after a handful of runs). What I am doing is pretty simple and as it is already suggested multiple times here: IFF > MF > IS > Wrath Spam < Eclipse > Starfire Spam I do have a 4T8 Bonus hence whenever the 4Bonus is up I will connect it as soon as possible. Now what I am wondering is, according to these "logs" if there is something I could do better. I know it is not your job to actually help me but I would certainly appreciate a helping hand because I am starting to wonder if my low dps/dmg is my lack of equipment (I switched from healer to moonkin just 2 weeks ago - hence the healer items in some slots) or if I am breaking out of rotation where I should not. Additionally, incase someone decides to lend a helping hand, I would VERY MUCH appreciate it, if you could what and how you analyzed the log. I see the numbers, just don't know what exactly to do with them when its on the table like that... So many requests...Thanks in advance!
 09/04/09, 1:09 PM #308 elmars Glass Joe   Lendo Tauren Druid   Ravencrest (EU) Whats better to have 258 item level t9 4p or stay with 2t8+2t9, for me it looks its worth going for full t9 as 4p bonus is realy nice and you will go over 100% crit. for lunar eclipse anyway.
 09/05/09, 5:51 PM #309 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis Ok, I'm adding a "haste during Lunar" stat to the spreadsheet (will upload as soon as I finish this post). First conclusion: Engineering is still weaker than the others (but not by much), even when I model Hyperspeeds generously as 170 Lunar-haste. Now, trinkets: I did a really quick analysis for now. I think the on-use haste effects ([Scale of Fates] and [Talisman of Volatile Power]) are rather weak. One of the issues is that they're both 20second effects, so their uptime is somewhat wasted in a ~13s Eclipse. The spreadsheet model does assume that the haste effect applies only during the Eclipse itself, but with truncation, you're going from a Lunar into casting Wrath nearly every time, so this is pretty accurate anyway. This effect is even worse for Talisman, since you waste the good part of the proc. I put in a simple model of [Reign of the Unliving] and it seems to be ridiculously good. I'll try to refine it somewhat, but the two versions of this trinket are likely to be BiS by a substantial margin. Just inputting their stats manually into the sheet with my current gear, they ranked roughly in this order: [Reign of the Unliving] [Flare of the Heavens] [Illustration of the Dragon Soul]/[Eye of the Broodmother] (IDS is a touch better on paper with 100% uptime, but it stacks slower than Eye in practice. I'd probably choose Eye). [Sundial of the Exiled]/[Abyssal Rune] (depending on how much haste you need) [Scale of Fates] [Talisman of Volatile Power] Last edited by Hamlet : 09/05/09 at 5:56 PM.
09/05/09, 10:28 PM   #310
Knofle
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Balnazzar (EU)
 Originally Posted by Yauzers11 Hey is the T9-2 bonus bugged cause I just got it and I also have the Glyph of Starfire. When i get deeper into my rotation and i refresh my Moonfire it doesn't add the 3sec like it should.
Was this discovered on the heroic training dummy? I've had some issues with moonfire not being refreshed on the dummy in Orgrimmar, but never on a boss fight. If it was on a boss fight, I'm still not sure if you should relate it directly to the T9-2 bonus though.

Have you tried to reproduce it on something else?

09/06/09, 12:38 AM   #311
Mews
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Proudmoore
 Originally Posted by Arawethion I put in a simple model of [Reign of the Unliving] and it seems to be ridiculously good. I'll try to refine it somewhat, but the two versions of this trinket are likely to be BiS by a substantial margin.
I'm curious to know the interaction between the two ilvl trinkets while both are equipped, whether they share the same proc buff and proc ICD, proc seperately off the same crits etc etc It's a weird precedent that could have interesting and powerful results.

For those wondering if they can both be equiped, here's a shaman with 2 [Binding Stone] equipped(at the time of this post, gathered from one of the Enh shaman thread); The World of Warcraft Armory

09/06/09, 1:21 AM   #312
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Mews I'm curious to know the interaction between the two ilvl trinkets while both are equipped, whether they share the same proc buff and proc ICD, proc seperately off the same crits etc etc It's a weird precedent that could have interesting and powerful results. For those wondering if they can both be equiped, here's a shaman with 2 [Binding Stone] equipped(at the time of this post, gathered from one of the Enh shaman thread); The World of Warcraft Armory
For now I'm assuming they work perfectly well independently, since the buffs they use have different names.

 09/06/09, 3:53 PM #313 AzN-Flip Glass Joe   Ichinose Human Warrior   Duskwood i finally decided to visit this board for my druid i usually use this site for my rogue and i am just wondering what are some good druid add-ons that could help me know the cooldowns of eclipse and all of that other stuff that we need to be aware of to maximize dps as best as we can
09/07/09, 1:56 PM   #314
Poromu
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Windrunner
 Originally Posted by AzN-Flip i finally decided to visit this board for my druid i usually use this site for my rogue and i am just wondering what are some good druid add-ons that could help me know the cooldowns of eclipse and all of that other stuff that we need to be aware of to maximize dps as best as we can

On the first post of this thread there is a couple addons listed, there are other options but I think Squawk and Awe takes the cake.

09/07/09, 3:39 PM   #315
AzN-Flip
Glass Joe

Human Warrior

Duskwood
 Originally Posted by Poromu On the first post of this thread there is a couple addons listed, there are other options but I think Squawk and Awe takes the cake.
oh ic never saw it sorry about this guys thanks! im loving this add-on helps me alot
edit: what are two good blue gems to use to activate the meta gem?

Last edited by AzN-Flip : 09/07/09 at 8:34 PM.

 Elitist Jerks Moonkin Beginner Guide (obsolete; use the TTT article now (in my sig))