I think that the original post of this thread is drastically undervaluing engineering - I have it as equivalent or better than other professions at high gear levels. This math will all be rough, since I'm using the valuations in the front of the thread, instead of the sim, but:

The current logic is that trading 47 sp and 23 haste for an 'on use: 340 haste' is a loss, because 340 * 12/60 * .9 is less than 47 * 1.4 + 23 * .9; but the logic (and the sim I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong) assumes that 340 haste rating for 12 seconds per minute is roughly equivalent to 68 haste rating. With a modern cycle, this is *far* from the case.

Haste actually has two values - the value during solar and the value during lunar (after the soft cap). The solar value is drastically lower, because any time ng is up haste has zero value. So the net value of haste (ignoring cancelaura macros) is (NG_downtime * x + x) / 2 (x is the value of haste during the lunar eclipse.) The values in this thread put that at .9 (which has been reasonably close to my valuation in the sim most of the time).

Let's assume a 40% crit rate for a lower bound here (raid buffed). NG uptime with 40% crit rate is in the realm of 78% for wrath spam, so x is 1.48; with a 50% crit rate, that gets to 1.57.

Now, if you use hyperspeed only when lunar eclipse procs, you should be hitting it more like every 70 seconds, instead of every 60 on average, so the value of the accelerator at 40% crit is 340 * (12/70) * 1.48 = 86. The value of 47 sp and 23 haste comes out to 86.5 using the values from this thread, so that's obviously comparable; with 50% crit rate, the accelerators are worth 91.2. I think hyperspeed accelerators would need to be added to the simulator to get a *real* value (use only in the first half of lunar eclipse, on cooldown), but I feel comfortable enough on the basis of this napkin math to disagree with the OP's assertion that "Engineering and Skinning are weakest, both giving less benefit than 46 spellpower."

Notes: I've ignored the value of the rocket boots, since some people will doubtless prefer minor run speed enchants over 24 crit rating and 5 minute rockets. I think it's a worthwhile trade for most fights, but I can't easily quantify it. HSA also has high value on aoe, not that anybody cares much. Hitting HSA before spamming hurricane gets two hurricanes hasted, which is longer than most trash lives. And rocket boots are awesome.

On the other hand, I'm actually starting to run into the haste cap on *starfire* in the shorter fights now - there aren't enough separate lunars to use all my cooldowns unless the fight lasts at least 8 cycles (4 minutes), so if it's shorter than that, I have to use a haste pot while my [Fetish of Volatile Power] is up.

With the macro, my cycle has averaged ~37 seconds; I could probably do with a bigger sample size though; the variance in my data is higher than I'd like (>2). In any case, your 40s sounds reasonable for a macro-less rotation (and I'm sure you got that from strong data). Either way, my estimate was optimistic, I'll correct it here.

A 40 second rotation with 40-50% crit should get you 75.5-79.8 value points, which loses to the other professions slightly.
A 37 second rotation with 40-50% crit gets 81.6-86.3, which approaches even with jewelcrafting/bs/etc.

So without the rocketboots enchant, engineering doesn't really offer any bonus over the more normal professions, but is reasonably competitive.

I should have pointed out that the margin of error on my numbers is fairly large; it's truly napkin math. I worked backwards from sim-produced values that may or may not match the stats I assumed later. If I have time later I'll try to hack the accelerators into the sim.

That seems reasonable at first glance, although I still wouldn't recommend Engineering over other professions, as it will quickly drop in value anytime you can't maintain a tight rotation.

If you're very mathametically inclined at all, you shouldn't really be using the values listed in the OP, which are just zero-th order estimates based on my gear at the time I wrote it. Try familiarizing yourself with the (attached) spreadsheet. Also, for a more detailed post, look here: Moonkin TTT Article pre-publish draft .

Hey is the T9-2 bonus bugged cause I just got it and I also have the Glyph of Starfire. When i get deeper into my rotation and i refresh my Moonfire it doesn't add the 3sec like it should.

Hello there,

yet again a newbie poster here. I guess my issue is the same as all the other new people posting here: The sub-optimal amount of DPS. Here is a log of our raid on Sunday:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The reports for Hodir and Razorscale are not interesting due to the randomness of the dmg buff at Hodir and my task at Razorscale. Unfortunately on the other kills my dmg was quite insufficient - as far as I am concerned. I still do lack some items for different slots such as my 1st trinket which is a healer trinket which will be replaced by the Abyssal Rune tomorrow. (I just hope it drops after a handful of runs).

What I am doing is pretty simple and as it is already suggested multiple times here:

IFF > MF > IS > Wrath Spam < Eclipse > Starfire Spam

I do have a 4T8 Bonus hence whenever the 4Bonus is up I will connect it as soon as possible.

Now what I am wondering is, according to these "logs" if there is something I could do better. I know it is not your job to actually help me but I would certainly appreciate a helping hand because I am starting to wonder if my low dps/dmg is my lack of equipment (I switched from healer to moonkin just 2 weeks ago - hence the healer items in some slots) or if I am breaking out of rotation where I should not.

Additionally, incase someone decides to lend a helping hand, I would VERY MUCH appreciate it, if you could what and how you analyzed the log. I see the numbers, just don't know what exactly to do with them when its on the table like that...

So many requests...Thanks in advance!

Whats better to have 258 item level t9 4p or stay with 2t8+2t9, for me it looks its worth going for full t9 as 4p bonus is realy nice and you will go over 100% crit. for lunar eclipse anyway.

Ok, I'm adding a "haste during Lunar" stat to the spreadsheet (will upload as soon as I finish this post). First conclusion: Engineering is still weaker than the others (but not by much), even when I model Hyperspeeds generously as 170 Lunar-haste.

Now, trinkets:
I did a really quick analysis for now. I think the on-use haste effects ([Scale of Fates] and [Talisman of Volatile Power]) are rather weak. One of the issues is that they're both 20second effects, so their uptime is somewhat wasted in a ~13s Eclipse. The spreadsheet model does assume that the haste effect applies only during the Eclipse itself, but with truncation, you're going from a Lunar into casting Wrath nearly every time, so this is pretty accurate anyway. This effect is even worse for Talisman, since you waste the good part of the proc.

I put in a simple model of [Reign of the Unliving] and it seems to be ridiculously good. I'll try to refine it somewhat, but the two versions of this trinket are likely to be BiS by a substantial margin.

Just inputting their stats manually into the sheet with my current gear, they ranked roughly in this order:
[Reign of the Unliving]
[Flare of the Heavens]
[Illustration of the Dragon Soul]/[Eye of the Broodmother] (IDS is a touch better on paper with 100% uptime, but it stacks slower than Eye in practice. I'd probably choose Eye).
[Sundial of the Exiled]/[Abyssal Rune] (depending on how much haste you need)
[Scale of Fates]
[Talisman of Volatile Power]

I'm curious to know the interaction between the two ilvl trinkets while both are equipped, whether they share the same proc buff and proc ICD, proc seperately off the same crits etc etc It's a weird precedent that could have interesting and powerful results.

For those wondering if they can both be equiped, here's a shaman with 2 [Stonecloth Bindings] equipped(at the time of this post, gathered from one of the Enh shaman thread); The World of Warcraft Armory

For now I'm assuming they work perfectly well independently, since the buffs they use have different names.

i finally decided to visit this board for my druid i usually use this site for my rogue and i am just wondering what are some good druid add-ons that could help me know the cooldowns of eclipse and all of that other stuff that we need to be aware of to maximize dps as best as we can

oh ic never saw it sorry about this guys thanks! im loving this add-on helps me alot
edit: what are two good blue gems to use to activate the meta gem?