Moonkin Beginner Guide (obsolete; use the TTT article now (in my sig)) - Page 22

klüger · 09/08/09, 2:34 AM

Originally Posted by AzN-Flip

oh ic never saw it sorry about this guys thanks! im loving this add-on helps me alot
edit: what are two good blue gems to use to activate the meta gem?

the purified one, sp/spirit

also get wiseeclipse (link in the moonkin ttt article). its just an install&forget mod, but it helps quite a bit

casiphia · 09/08/09, 6:00 PM

I have just recently started gearing up my moonkin. I'm the type of person who stockpiles all potential specs of gear as I level/instance/raid and then when I get time/money, go crazy enchanting/gemming and getting all specs I'm willing to play up to speed (always bare minimum hit/uncritt/hp/def/etc).

I know trash in general doesnt matter, but does anyone have a happy easy solution for just holding my own on trash? I picked up gale winds, which helped a bunch, but what if it's a smaller group of mobs? (I'd link my armory except I switch between bear, cat, and boomkin almost constantly) IS-W, MF spam? Just wrath?

My haste is also much below suggestion (I'm at ~2k sp, ~210 haste). Is it worth gemming for haste? Or will haste just come as I gear up?

When I look at rawr, it heavily pushes int (or int/hybrid) gems (I have rawr left on defaults, dont know how to get it to suggest minimum numbers). I ignored it and went spell power for now. Just wanting reassurance.

Selini · 09/08/09, 9:02 PM

If you tinker with gemming templates in rawr you can customise how you want to gem and make any possible combo of gemming you wish to have. Also try and list all buffs you know you will have to get an accurate gearing model, I'd advise you to play with gear options that are realistic for you rather than go with what rawr tells you to be bis.

For trash generally the rule I follow is - minimum of 3 mobs then hurricane and then switch to single spell spamming -usually wrath - with at least moonfire up (to get the crit from idol) when there's 2 mobs left.

Fewer than three then I just dot both up and get e&m on both targets and just do a normal dps cycle but taking care to switch to the other mob to refresh debuffs. If It's a high dps group - ie the mob isn't going to stay alive long enough for decent dot ticking I just spam wrath, with a moonfire for idol proc, till lunar then starfire chain till the mob's dead.

As for gemming haste, I personally wouldn't do it unless I was close to the soft cap. My sockets would pretty much be spellpower unless I lack a few points of hit - that's the only non sp gem I'd gem in my gear, instead I'd favour haste items over crit items.

Rondaru · 09/09/09, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by elmars

Whats better to have 258 item level t9 4p or stay with 2t8+2t9, for me it looks its worth going for full t9 as 4p bonus is realy nice and you will go over 100% crit. for lunar eclipse anyway.

Rawr tells me, that a full T9@258 BiS setup is overall only a marginal (~0.2%) dps loss over the same setup with the weakest two slots having T8.5 pieces.

The benefit of T9p4 over T8p2 however is a more reliable DPS with less dependence on a high eclipse uptime. I will definitely aim for it.

Draugdae · 09/09/09, 11:47 AM

I did a little number crunching about whether it's better to hit a spell power trinket during Lunar Eclipse or Solar Eclipse. Using coefficients from the TTT draft my math looks like this:

Solar Eclipse
1.2078 = SP coefficient on Wrath during Eclipse (accounting for moonfury/eclipse being additive)
11 = Wraths affected (I could particularly use confirmation on an expected number of Wraths that benefit from Eclipse)
(paper doll crit or PDC)+.2 = effective crit rate (ECR for next formulas)
ECR*2.09+(1-ECR) = 1.09*ECR + 1 = multiplier on damage due to crits

Total SP coefficient for the duration of Solar Eclipse:
1.2078*11*(1.09*ECR+1) = 14.4817*ECR+13.2858 = 14.4817*PDC + 16.1821

Lunar Eclipse
1.646 = SP coefficient on Starfire
6 = Starfires affected (this is dependant on haste and Nature's Grace)
PDC+.23+.3 = ECR during Lunar Eclipse
1.09*ECR + 1 = multiplier on damage due to crits
.6 = Unaffected Starfires
PDC+.23 = ECR for unaffected Starfires

Total SP coefficient for the duration of Lunar Eclipse:
1.646*6*(1.09*ECR + 1)= 10.7648*ECR+9.876 = 10.7648*PDC + 15.5813
Partial Starfire correction = 1.646*0.6*(1.09*ECR+1) = 1.0765*ECR+0.9876 = 1.0765*PDC + 1.2352
Final = 11.8413*PDC + 16.8165

Break even point is found at:
11.8413*PDC + 16.8165 = 14.4817*PDC + 16.1821
0.6344 = 2.6404*PDC
PDC = .2403

If my above math is correct, then it is better to use SP trinkets during Solar Eclipse if your paper doll crit-rate is 24% or higher. If there are any flaws with my assumptions or my algebra, please let me know (PMs preferred to keep the thread clean).

Erdluf · 09/09/09, 1:14 PM

Draugdae,

Even assuming most of your math is correct:

1) Delaying the use of a trinket for 15s means losing roughly 15% of its benefit (15/90 or 15/120).
2) Using timings from a recent Hamlet Wrathcalcs, in the time it takes to do 11 Wraths, you can cast 6.6 Eclipsed Starfires. That "wasted 0.6 SF-cast time" means the trinket SP gets some use on something else (a DoT, or the first nuke after Lunar Eclipse).
3) Assuming wiseeclipse works well, you've got more eclipse downtown after Solar, then after Lunar. If you pop a 15s or 20s trinket a few seconds into Solar, some of its SP will be "wasted" on non-eclipsed Wraths.

On the math front:
1) Comparing PDC+.2 to PDC+.26, I think the SF crit rate (before eclipse) should only be 3% higher (IIS) than the Wrath crit rate.
2) I'm pretty sure that the Solar eclipse bonus is additive with Moonfury. I think Wrathcalcs is also using an additive 4t9. If those are correct, your final Solar coefficient is a bit too optimistic.

Draugdae · 09/09/09, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Draugdae,

Even assuming most of your math is correct:

1) Delaying the use of a trinket for 15s means losing roughly 15% of its benefit (15/90 or 15/120).
2) Using timings from a recent Hamlet Wrathcalcs, in the time it takes to do 11 Wraths, you can cast 6.6 Eclipsed Starfires. That "wasted 0.6 SF-cast time" means the trinket SP gets some use on something else (a DoT, or the first nuke after Lunar Eclipse).
3) Assuming wiseeclipse works well, you've got more eclipse downtown after Solar, then after Lunar. If you pop a 15s or 20s trinket a few seconds into Solar, some of its SP will be "wasted" on non-eclipsed Wraths.

On the math front:
1) Comparing PDC+.2 to PDC+.26, I think the SF crit rate (before eclipse) should only be 3% higher (IIS) than the Wrath crit rate.
2) I'm pretty sure that the Solar eclipse bonus is additive with Moonfury. I think Wrathcalcs is also using an additive 4t9. If those are correct, your final Solar coefficient is a bit too optimistic.

1) Delaying the use of a trinket only reduces its benefit if you end up getting less uses during the entire fight. In a 5 minute fight you can use a 2 min. trinket 3 times. If you wait 15 seconds before each use you still get 3 uses of it. In a 4:30 fight the same is not true.
2) I should include .6 of a non-eclipsed SF to accurately pair up up-times. This is a good point.
3) If you're able to reliably go straight from a Lunar into a Solar that would be ideal for a 20s trinket. If you cannot, the SP that would be 'wasted' on non-eclipsed Wraths will likely be very similar to the SP that would be 'wasted' on non-eclipsed Starfires.

1) You are correct. I misread in haste and .23 is correct.
2) Further reading confirms the additive nature of eclipse with Moonfury. I will update my above math.

Edit: Above math has been corrected. SP on Solar is only better at 24% paper doll crit or higher.

kaartis · 09/09/09, 6:03 PM

Has someone made Moonkin BiS list? I didnt find any with search and im just wondering if someone has made it.

Blv · 09/10/09, 2:10 AM

Anyone notice that Starfire glyph [sometimes] doesn't increase the duration of Moonfire? I noticed it once on (Heroic) Lord Jaraxxus and now on training dummies. Not sure what's causing this X_X.

Poggen · 09/10/09, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Blv

Anyone notice that Starfire glyph [sometimes] doesn't increase the duration of Moonfire? I noticed it once on (Heroic) Lord Jaraxxus and now on training dummies. Not sure what's causing this X_X.

Experiencing the same thing. I think i heard something about this having something to do with the T9 2P-bonus? Does anyone else have the same issue?

Bumbleb · 09/10/09, 12:11 PM

I run with about 33% crit and 331 haste rating sometimes I go through 2 durations of dots at the beginning of a fight and end up spending the rest of the encounter trying to catch up with the other dps. Should I concentrate on stacking more crit?

mortiia · 09/10/09, 12:16 PM

Is it best to keep up dots full time now or just swap the eclipses or both?

Eilt · 09/10/09, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bumbleb

I run with about 33% crit and 331 haste rating sometimes I go through 2 durations of dots at the beginning of a fight and end up spending the rest of the encounter trying to catch up with the other dps. Should I concentrate on stacking more crit?

You can't outgear RNG, it just happens sometimes. Stick to the principles in this thread/forum which mention soft caps and how to gem and stick to it. And try and think of those (seemingly) few times when that first wrath crit actually procs a lunar

nesf · 09/12/09, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Ok, I'm adding a "haste during Lunar" stat to the spreadsheet (will upload as soon as I finish this post). First conclusion: Engineering is still weaker than the others (but not by much), even when I model Hyperspeeds generously as 170 Lunar-haste.

Now, trinkets:
I did a really quick analysis for now. I think the on-use haste effects ([Scale of Fates] and [Talisman of Volatile Power]) are rather weak. One of the issues is that they're both 20second effects, so their uptime is somewhat wasted in a ~13s Eclipse. The spreadsheet model does assume that the haste effect applies only during the Eclipse itself, but with truncation, you're going from a Lunar into casting Wrath nearly every time, so this is pretty accurate anyway. This effect is even worse for Talisman, since you waste the good part of the proc.

I put in a simple model of [Reign of the Unliving] and it seems to be ridiculously good. I'll try to refine it somewhat, but the two versions of this trinket are likely to be BiS by a substantial margin.

Just inputting their stats manually into the sheet with my current gear, they ranked roughly in this order:
[Reign of the Unliving]
[Flare of the Heavens]
[Illustration of the Dragon Soul]/[Eye of the Broodmother] (IDS is a touch better on paper with 100% uptime, but it stacks slower than Eye in practice. I'd probably choose Eye).
[Sundial of the Exiled]/[Abyssal Rune] (depending on how much haste you need)
[Scale of Fates]
[Talisman of Volatile Power]

I'm not sure if modelling [Sundial of the Exiled]/[Abyssal Rune] is very reflective of the trinkets actual performance (I'm assuming you count them as a flat SP gain over all time here averaging out the proc over the cooldown period + 10 seconds or so?). Our dps varies quite a bit over our cycle due to eclipse procs and the value of the trinkets are diminished strongly by this I think (+SP boosts seem much better during Lunar Eclipse than anywhere else in our cycle due to the amount of crits one can expect magnifying the gain over Solar assuming non-spectacular crit levels). They would be far stronger if our dps was smoother over time.

I'm not sure how exactly to model this unless we take a sample period and work out how likely the buff periods of the two will be to overlap with eclipse procs and work it out from there but this then is quite RNG dependent (we might have to look into the variance in dps these would produce over say a straight +SP trinket or on use SP trinket which would be less variable in terms of dps increases).

I'm at the lower echelon of the gear scale at the moment and am using both these trinkets so I'm extremely curious about this.

Aluana · 09/12/09, 10:57 PM

I'd just like to say a big thanks to everyone posting helpful hints and discussions in this thread. Over the course of 2 days I've read the entire thread front to back and I must say it has helped me loads with my new boomkin especially in going from 1.8k dps on heroic training dummy to 2.3 (have no parses for this but considering the gear I'm using I reckon its pretty damn good =D WoW Armory: Davyyon 80 boomkin) I love the eclipse addon especially. However I am puzzled by 1 thing.

Does squawk and awe actually work correctly with 3.2 or is it just a waste of addon memory having it enabled?