Moonkin Beginner Guide (obsolete; use the TTT article now (in my sig)) - Page 9

• Hamlet · 07/06/09, 9:47 AM

The only fight where I typically unglyph IS (or have the other Moonkin do it) is Vezax.

klüger · 07/06/09, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

The only fight where I typically unglyph IS (or have the other Moonkin do it) is Vezax.

this, and I think I'll try it next time we do thorim hard. We've had a lot of wipes due to tankdeath's

Poromu · 07/06/09, 6:16 PM

Most of those deaths it seems will be related to the DPS requirement to kill him before stacks get high, especially if you run with 6+ healers for it like my guild. Vezax is yea, the only one I change things up for.

Since my offspec uses resto glyphs I just respec it to Vezax mana efficiency since I don't Moonfire it's not much of a concern having no balance glyphs.

The only one I would get would be Starfall anyways for the Omen procs, but it's not entirely worthwhile having to carry stacks of glyphs on me for stuff.

ehakam · 07/09/09, 1:24 AM

Originally Posted by Selini

Druids lose less dps from it, but the only reason to not glyph it is if you are specifically asked to glyph it by your tanks/raid leaders.

Do most raids run without the -3% hit debuff? Assuming the boss hits 50% of the time (with the other 50% being dodged/parried/missed) the debuff is about 6% dmg mitigation - even better at higher gear levels if the hit rate is lower. Albeit this only applies to melee hits, not overall damage, so mileage may vary from boss to boss.

However, the tradeoff is ~100 dps (generous estimate for glyph switch from IS -> SFall), which accounts for <0.2% of your total raid dps for 25-man and <0.5% for 10-man. Isn't that a trivial amount for the mitigation your tank and healers would love?

Poromu · 07/09/09, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by ehakam

Do most raids run without the -3% hit debuff? Assuming the boss hits 50% of the time (with the other 50% being dodged/parried/missed) the debuff is about 6% dmg mitigation - even better at higher gear levels if the hit rate is lower. Albeit this only applies to melee hits, not overall damage, so mileage may vary from boss to boss.

However, the tradeoff is ~100 dps (generous estimate for glyph switch from IS -> SFall), which accounts for <0.2% of your total raid dps for 25-man and <0.5% for 10-man. Isn't that a trivial amount for the mitigation your tank and healers would love?

When it comes to my dps, nothing is a trivial ammount. Especially if you consider that the more dps you squeeze out the faster the fight is over, that's the biggest form of mitigation you can help with to any aspect of your raid. There's only one fight that this debuff is worthwhile to apply and that's Vezax hard mode, since all his damage is melee and the mechanics of mana regen with healing and Surge of Darkness. The debuff just isn't worth it on most encounters.

Honestly though, considering the Shadow Crash mechanics, I think Hunters probably lose the least on Vezax hard putting up this debuff - especially since they're mostly just there for Pack anyways.

bodvarbjarki · 07/09/09, 12:00 PM

Saying that literally no dps loss is trivial is irrational. The difference between IS and Starfall glyphs corresponds to ~ 0.1-0.2 seconds of P2 fight length for Thorim. If you weigh this against the potential benefit of the IS debuff near the end of the fight, the latter seems much stronger.

Poromu · 07/09/09, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by bodvarbjarki

Saying that literally no dps loss is trivial is irrational. The difference between IS and Starfall glyphs corresponds to ~ 0.1-0.2 seconds of P2 fight length for Thorim. If you weigh this against the potential benefit of the IS debuff near the end of the fight, the latter seems much stronger.

Yes but this is a raid-to-raid situation. The healers/tanks in my raid would rather me squeeze every bit of dps out and heal an extra bit of damage, I was actually the one who brought up the debuff on Vezax hard because I think it's the only fight where the debuff shines like no other.

ehakam · 07/09/09, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Poromu

Yes but this is a raid-to-raid situation. The healers/tanks in my raid would rather me squeeze every bit of dps out and heal an extra bit of damage, I was actually the one who brought up the debuff on Vezax hard because I think it's the only fight where the debuff shines like no other.

I agree that this is probably a raid-to-raid situation, but the logic behind it is what I'm questioning. Would your raid leader ask your DK tank to etch Rune of the Fallen Crusader over Rune of Swordshattering? Probably not, but the math is very similiar.

Rune of the Fallen Crusader would provide your DK tank with 15% more strength. I took a look at one of your WWS parses of your IC kill, and picked out Zerato, as my DK example. With about 1300 strength raid buffed, the Rune is about 180 str = 360 ap =~ 25 weapon dps. Eyeballing/napkin math of Zerato's skills used during that period, I estimate 25 weapon dps translating to about 50 actual dps. So estimation here is 4% mitigation for 50 dps. I'll try to work the real math out later, but I'll need to read up more on DK tank rotations & coefficients first.

The moonkin scenario above was 3% mitigation for 100 dps. These are just estimations, but I think my napkin math shows that the results are close enough that the IS debuff shouldn't be so easily dismissed. If you're willing to drop 3% mitigation for 100 dps, would you be willing to drop another 4% mitigation for 50 more dps? There's a stigma that dps roles need to focus on maximizing dps and tanks need to focus on tanking that may actually be causing more harm than good.

• Hamlet · 07/09/09, 7:50 PM

I actually agree with a lot of the above. I've had this topic kind of filed away in the back of head for a while and never got around to soliciting opinions from people about DPS vs. mitigation tradeoffs. I brought it up to our raid leader myself at Vezax and even then, nobody really seemed to care much. But I bet if some public discussion of the issue appears, many people will probably start to see the value of the mitigation.

Celdhyrean · 07/09/09, 9:53 PM

I'd say that the value of more mitigation (from sources other than the tank himself) mainly appears when the tanks start to die a lot, or a bit earlier if the healers have to let die more people to keep the tank up. If the tank doesn't die and the healer can keep everyone up, then it's useless.
Of course it's never as clear cut and it does help to relieve a bit of the pression that's on the healers, but if they aren't having a problem keeping the tank up then there's no point. Also to keep in mind, when the healers are getting stressed to keep the tank up, then the dps generally also have to give it their best to end that phase fast.

Lastly, 3% hit debuff means around 1 less hit per minute, so let's say 1 20-25k hit less per minute. The debuff doesn't really allow the healers to cast less unde rnormal circumstances, what it does is randomly save a tank from death (if that hit would have killed him) or create more overheal (if that hit wouldn't have killed him).

Because of all these, as a raid leader and moonkin, i would only consider the unglyphed IS for very difficult tanking situations, Thorim towards the end of the fight and Vezax hard being the only ones i can really think of (maybe Algalon with the added bonus of a very fast attack speed, but i don't know enough about him to judge).
So it's to each inidivual to consider how they are doing on those fights and to choose between dps and mitigation according to their circumstances.

Jezz · 07/10/09, 2:58 AM

As people have pretty much said, 3% miss on a boss isn't a flat damage reduction and isn't necessarily going to save the tanks life. The only bosses where I feel it is worth it are ones that:

- Hit the tank non-stop throughout the fight
- MT deaths are a cause of wipes
- The only DPS loss is because you don't have the glyph, as opposed to having to keep the debuff up on a mob/boss you aren't damaging.

Therefore, the only times I would use it would be: Vezax and Algalon (possibly XT Hard-Mode if the encounter was still even remotely challenging)

Takkenboom · 07/10/09, 4:11 AM

Originally Posted by Celdhyrean

If the tank doesn't die and the healer can keep everyone up, then it's useless.
Of course it's never as clear cut and it does help to relieve a bit of the pression that's on the healers, but if they aren't having a problem keeping the tank up then there's no point.

I think i have to disagree here. If the healers have it to easy it is a possibility to swap out 1 for an extra DPS. I am not saying the 3% hit debuff makes up for 1 healer, but all small things help.

Marsikel · 07/10/09, 5:53 AM

It might be a good idea to add some boss specific rotations to this guide. For bosses like Hodir and General.

After posting a WWS report in the WWS topic I recieved several PM's regarding my Hodir kill (18.3k). It might be good to add it to this guide, to avoid such qeustions in the future.

Hodir
*Wrath till Eclips is worth it in this fight
*Starfire spam
*Only apply MF/IS/Starfall durning movement
*Use tree's just before pull to help with flash freeze not waisting GCD
*Use Haste pot 1 sec before pull to help on Flash freeze
*Use a Wild magic pot if you got Eclips up storm buff, fire and light beam. Also you need to be sure you are not moving for 10-15 secs.

General
*Don't dps outside black pool
*Spam Starfire
*Use IS when you are starting to move outside back pool or when you are moving into it.
*If you want to maximize your (raid)DPS use this spec
*Don't use Starfall/MF to exspensive

Poromu · 07/10/09, 7:16 AM

On Vezax, Starfall is still good for dps if you get an omen proc it's the best spell to use it on.

Also isn't IS better DPM than SF?

• Hamlet · 07/10/09, 7:57 AM

Originally Posted by Poromu

On Vezax, Starfall is still good for dps if you get an omen proc it's the best spell to use it on.

Also isn't IS better DPM than SF?

Yes, and so are 2T8 Solar Wraths.

One issue with Starfall is that Stars casting from outside the Crash won't be buffed. This means it's probably not any better than a Moonfire.