There seems to be a lot of concern about which of Agi and ArP is preferred come 3.2.2, and a lot of people are confused because they are seeing Rawr recommend Agi but others recommending ArP. There are posts about it in several of the other feral DPS threads as well, so here's a short summary.
Despite Rawr 2.2.15's recommendations, other theorycrafting tools (Tossks, Simcraft, FbN) still show ArP to be the stronger stat for a typical T8+ geared cat come 3.2.2, especially with Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone. See discussion of the various tools beginning here: Feral questions?
Hardcapping ArP is currently a strong choice, but in 3.2.2 it will probably be best to return to softcapping with Runestone. See discussion beginning here: FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)
In closure: try 2.2.16. If you still do not get the results you expect, try disabling temporary buffs like Heroism, equipping an ArP set, checking ArP food, creating ArP gemming templates, and then running the optimizer. For me (4pT8; Grim Toll; 568 ArP w/food), 2.2.16 shows similar stat rankings to what I'd expect based on simulations and theorycraft for live:
ArP > Agi > Strength > Hit, Exp when not capped > Crit, Haste > AP
For a detailed exploration of the value and nature of ArP, spend some time reading the FbN thread: FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)
Nightcrowler has created and posted a number of very informative graphs and tables based on simulations with FbN.
Last edited by foxglove : 09/14/09 at 3:09 AM.
Reason: followup re: 2.2.16, FbN
ok so ive been stacking agility on all gems that i can..if i take those off and put in armpen will that armpen compensate for the agility i lost? this is confusing me..and i don't want to take jewelcrafting for something that wont make much difference..
I was in the same boat as you and quite honestly if you can afford to lose the crit/ap from the agility gems go ahead and go for full ArP. I think I've got maybe 2 +20 agi gems on my dps set, and still sit at about 53% crit chance fully raid buffed and 54% passive ArP.
Last edited by Calil : 09/14/09 at 3:34 AM.
Reason: edited for spelling
My personal tests seem to differ a bit from the ArP recommendations many are giving (in that they are overvaluing the stat). I think the model in RAWR is working under the assumption that if you get beyond `300 base ArP and are wearing one of the two ArP trinkets Agility is near equal in value.
My personal tests seem to differ a bit from the ArP recommendations many are giving (in that they are overvaluing the stat). I think the model in RAWR is working under the assumption that if you get beyond `300 base ArP and are wearing one of the two ArP trinkets Agility is near equal in value.
Er, well, that's not really how Rawr works. The only "assumptions" it includes are DPS mechanics, the data you input, and the mathematical model of your DPS cycle. The relative "values" of ArP and Agi are outputs from those assumptions, not inputs with them.
The oft-quoted "300 ArP" number is from empirical tests with FbN circa 3.0 and is unrelated to Rawr's model. For comparison, in Rawr, I believe my fairly typical Naxx set "tipped" from Agi to ArP as the preferred gem around 400-450 ArP, but it's always 100% dependent on your specific gear set.
My personal tests seem to differ a bit from the ArP recommendations many are giving (in that they are overvaluing the stat). I think the model in RAWR is working under the assumption that if you get beyond `300 base ArP and are wearing one of the two ArP trinkets Agility is near equal in value.
Agility's value in gear is a relatively linear thing. Agility gives a set amount of crit and a set amount of AP for every bit of Agility you have. As opposed to Armor Penetration whose value increases the more you have. At 0 Armor Pen for instance Agility is just much better. However once you have a given amount of armor pen (300 being the magic number in most gear sets pre 3.2.2) then you will find that it's value outweighs Agility. However at that point you will not see a drastically large increase in damage between Agility and Armor Pen. Reaching way past that point (up into soft cap values for instance) you will see a more clear damage increase and the argument of Armor Pen vs Agility becomes a lot more clear in favor of Armor Pen.
Rawr, as a calculator, makes assumptions that aren't always true. For instance, that you will achieve 100% bleed uptime no matter what (both Rip and Rake). While that's the goal you shoot for, no one ever realistically comes close to reaching it when optimizing their DPS. By its nature, Rawr makes a lot of estimations that probably don't hold up in real situations. That's what you get when you use a DPS calculator instead of a simulator: fast, approximate answers.
What do you think about 2pc. T8 (gloves+shoulders) and 2pc. T9(head+legs), I have to add that I have not got the hands yet, which drops in 10man version >.<. Rawr says that I have ~90DPS more than with 3pc. T9 (shoulders+legs+head). Another point is, you have more expertise, 24, so nearly capped; hit is the same with 255 rating.
I don't really know how strong 2pc. T8 is?! So I try to keep it, till I will get the gloves. (Assassinenhandschuhe der Sonnenhäscher - Gegenstände - World of Warcraft Datenbank von buffed.de)
Last edited by Batlecruiser : 09/18/09 at 12:15 PM.
Well I don't know about your gear, but when I compare these two alternatives in RAWR with my gear setting, the 4T9 one wins 400 DPS ahead. Even it I take the 245 versions of T9, it's still better than 2T8 + 2T9.
It was mentioned a couple times already, that neither Hit cap nor Expertise Cap is necessary. Though it smoothes out the dps cycle, I have to admit that. And T8 gloves+shoulders might help you, but maybe someone else is above hitcap or expertise cap already?
Of course, if RAWR tells you to go for 2T8+2T9 then that might be true for you. But it isn't generally and surely not BiS.
Not exactly what I meant. ^^
I think 2T9 + randoms is better than 4T9, 5% crit on rip an furious bite is not so good, I think.
I meant 2T8 (shoulders+gloves) + 2T9 (head+legs) or 2T9. Hmpf it is different to describ,i gonna make 2 profiles (armory down atm -,-). xD
I know that hitcap isn't important, but if autoattack has the most dmg in my recount, why should it be bad. And hitcap also means, that you can look ahead, which style you are using next.^^
First of all thanks for the awesome guide and the constructive discussion in the past 10 pages.
My question was about the following scenario: Let's say I have Mangle up on the target and for the sake of argument I have 5 CP and [Mjolnir Runestone] procs and I proceed to Rip. Does each tick on the duration of the entire Rip apply the increased ArP or does each tick check if [Mjolnir Runestone] is still active and does damage based on the ArP at that given moment?
First of all thanks for the awesome guide and the constructive discussion in the past 10 pages.
My question was about the following scenario: Let's say I have Mangle up on the target and for the sake of argument I have 5 CP and [Mjolnir Runestone] procs and I proceed to Rip. Does each tick on the duration of the entire Rip apply the increased ArP or does each tick check if [Mjolnir Runestone] is still active and does damage based on the ArP at that given moment?
Nope, Rip is bleeding damage, that means it is not afficted by armor, so your rip-damage is just supported by your attackpower. It does no matter how much armor a mob has, rip-ticks are always equal high. So you have to look at your ap proccs, When you proceed to Rip while you have an AP-procc and the ap-procc disappears, your rip-ticks are as high as with the ap you set it on the mob. So if you have less ap and want so refresh, it does not work, you have to wait till it is consumed.
Last edited by Batlecruiser : 09/18/09 at 3:24 PM.
Armor Penetration is a great stat, but it does only increase some attacks, whereas Attack Power (and to a lesser extent Crit) affects all of them. In lower gear models (those that do not have an abundance of crit or a Tier set bonus) where bleeds are a larger percentage of damage you'll find the switch point from Agility to Armor Penetration to be a higher amount of required passive Armor Penetration. Ferocious Bite is probably a good indicator. The more Ferocious Bites you can work into a rotation, the better armor penetration is going to treat you. If keeping up Savage Roar, Rip and Rake is still problematic at the moment, I would stick with Agility. The increased crit chance will make the rotation easier.
First time post here, after a long time reading all the amazing threads, with endless useful information. Has helped me out so many times in the past. This one in particular has really helped been interesting.
I have a couple of questions to ask about my gear choices in recent days that I'm unsure of, and want some clarification.
I recently bought Death-warmed Belt, and fitted it with two 20AGI gems, and a 10AGI 15STAM gem. I checked it all out on Rawr beforehand and it said it would give me a significant DPS increase; which it has, to an extent. I'm just a little concerned that I lost a fairly considerable amount of both expertise and hit over Belt of the Twilight Assassin.
Since my DPS has gone up, it isn't too much of an issue, but I have noticed, while looking at possible upgrades in the future, that a lot of the gear doesn't have all too much expertise on it. I'm worried that I'll end up with barely any and will end up with a lot of dodged attacks. Would it be wise to go back to the Twilight Assassin belt to hold onto as much expertise as I can? Or to stick with what I have and... hope for the best?
Perhaps this post is in the wrong thread, and totally out of context for the thread in general, but I figured I could get the best feedback here.
A little bit more on topic, I have a question about my crit percentage:
Self buffed, I have 54%, but this hits 60% once my Idol procs and with BoK, which I have 9 times out of 10. Is there such a thing as too much crit? Had a discussion with a guildmate, and they were saying that because I'm over 50% crit, there isn't any point in adding more because the next best thing is to have 100% simply because the only thing better than 1 out of 2 hits critting is all hits critting. This sounds like a load of rubbish to me, but it got me thinking. Perhaps I would benefit more from ArP gems rather than the AGI ones? I only have 181 ArP so I was holding off on adding these gems until a bit later.
Any feedback is appreciated. Again, sorry if this is in the wrong thread.
EDIT: Been looking around the forum posts here, and found a lot of people saying STR > AGI. Is this still the case? Should I be gemming STR and not AGI? I don't want to lose my crit %, but if STR offers me more overall DPS then I guess I need to regem.
A few drunken pointers then sterfane. Don't use a bad belt now because you might be low on expertise in the future. Don't gem armor pen unless you have a really high amount of it from gear or grim toll/mjolnir's runestone. Don't worry about expertise because other people tell you to, worry about it if you find yourself thinking hey! I really dont like how much these mobs are dodging me. Check out [Design: Nightmare Tear]
At one point it seemed that the amount of ArPen to have before gemming for more was 200. The last few posts I read sugguest that it is new 300. Is this correct, I should gem with Agility until I hit 300+ Arpen from gear?
The break even point between gemming ArP and Agi WAS ~300, but will raise significantly in 3.2.2(read foxglove's post). The best answer to your question, Hakana, is that it depends(idol and ArP proc trinkets mainly).
Use a tool like FbN, Simcraft or Toskk's to determine the point where YOU should switch to ArP from Agi.
ITEM ONE
Recommend adding the following line to the Cat DPS Rotation section:
0. Keep up FFF unless you have a good boomkin who knows how important Imp FF is to the raid's damage.
If you have the luxury of always running in an optimized raid comp the point is moot. But for the rest of us it's not. Examples: The boomkin is sick or filling in for the Resto Druid, or it's late in the week, everyone's saved and you end up in the 2nd-string/half-pug 10-man hard mode group that has no boomkin.
Starting a bossfight with FFF before Mangle also slows down your initial aggro-gain for a precious 1.5 seconds. With Cower useless and Vigilance/Hand of Salvation at a premium or not available this is a real concern.
ITEM TWO
Please forgive me for digging up something from two pages ago, but I keep ending up coming back to the same one of Boevis' posts and I see no relevant discussion of this issue anywhere else on this forum:
Originally Posted by Boevis
Keep in mind the TF bonus only lasts 6 seconds and has a 30 second cooldown, with Berserk lasting 15 seconds this gives you a 9 second window in which to pool energy for the Berserk, this is essentially perfect because Berserk is on the GCD so you'll get to 100 energy before you can use another ability, though with lag and the unlikelyhood that you'll be at 0 before this 9 second period, you're better off Berserking at 7 or 8 seconds after TF wears off (17-16 seconds left on the TF Cooldown is a handy point). Ideally, you should refresh Mangle and Rake during the TF Bonus, but don't clip Rake in order to do so, likely you can delay the activation of TF (or Berserk, which will also delay TF) but that may be worse than simply having Rake downtime.
Admittedly there a few static fights in today's endgame raiding and Boevis' post is way more in-depth and micromanaging than the vast majority of feral players will ever achieve, but I'd still love to hear views on the absolute max-dps opening sequence on something like General Vezax or Lord Jaraxx based on this. The problem being in that TF is not on cd and you'd want to use it asap, but not overlap it with Berserk, which is also available - while still not giving the tank early aggro problems in the absence of him using a Speed Potion while running in, or Vigilance et al. Burning Berserk early seems to be a larger issue on progression hard modes when you don't know if getting one more last Berserk will make the difference later on in the fight (given no boss mechanic that calls for reserving Berserk early on, or trying to stack Berserk/Shattering Throw).
Maximizing your utility to the raid probably does not lie in maximizing your own dps. Ergo:
(Assuming very good player timing and no early Clearcasting procs on a hard mode/progression night boss. GCD adds 15 energy as far as I know.)
0. Pop a Potion of Speed as close to, but not before entering Combat, assuming you can rely on not having aggro issues early.
[Enter Combat]
1. FFF unless the boomkin can be relied upon to put it up in the first second of the fight. (Apply while running up, FC to close gap.)
2. Mangle, cost 40 energy - total energy now 60, begin GCD
[1s GCD]
3. SR, cost 25 energy - total energy now 25+, begin GCD
[1s GCD]
4. Rake - absolutely must have SR/Mangle up before Rake, cost 35 energy, total energy now 00 or slightly more, begin GCD.
5. TF is off the GCD but must be pressed after Rake. Energy total now 60+.
[1s GCD]
6. Berserk now, get Hysteria, possibly pull aggro unless you have Vigilance/Hand of Salv?
or
6. Shred, cost 42 energy, total now ~28, begin GCD.
[1s GCD]
7. Shred asap, cost 42 energy, total now ~00, begin GCD.
[1s GCD]
8. if 5CP then Rip asap, cost 30 energy, total now ~00, begin GCD. If not 5CP then 8a.
8a. Shred, cost 42 energy, total now ~00, begin GCD.
[1s GCD]
9. AY, THERE'S THE RUB - You're at low energy, TF still has a few seconds to go and you want Berserk on CD asap so you can maximize the number of them for the duration of the fight, knowing that the last part of the fight will possibly be the most critical, with people dead, a soon-to-be-enraged boss and things falling apart because it's progression night.
Do you wait for the energy to get up to 50-85 and then Berserk?
Do you continue your rotation as per FbN or FaceMauler or your instincts, and Berserk when you have a longer-lasting SR?
Do you Berserk before the first application of Rip (barring boss mechanic that you need to save it for)?
Do you give up on making maximum usage of the first TF buff and just use it as an initial way to get to 100 energy for an early - but inefficiently used - Berserk - i.e., put it in at step (5) above?
Is my timeline above simply way out of whack somehow?
Please keep in mind that I'm only concerned with this issue due to occasionally pulling aggro early on in a hard mode/progression fight where my very-not-hardcore guild is barely able to hope for an eventual win. Being the Hysteria target makes it even more important when and when not to Berserk. Calling for an early Hand of Salv may be the solution, but I don't always get Vigilance, even when we run our normal Warrior tank.
Last edited by coldbear : 09/27/09 at 2:03 PM.
Reason: GCD is 1s for cats, duh. Thanks Thendariel for setting me straight.
3. SR, cost 25 energy - total energy now 50+, begin GCD
[1.5s GCD]
4. Rake - absolutely must have SR/Mangle up before Rake, cost 35 energy, total energy now 30 or slightly more, begin GCD.
5. TF is off the GCD but must be pressed after Rake. Energy total now 90-100 (realistically, 100).
[1.5s GCD]
6. Shred, cost 42 energy, total now ~58, begin GCD.
[1.5s GCD]
7. Shred, cos
Do you give up on making maximum usage of the first TF buff and just use it as an initial way to get to 100 energy for an early - but inefficiently used - Berserk - i.e., put it in at step (5) above?
It's such a comically microscopic difference in damage that I can't bring myself to give a damn. Getting that berserk in early with a full energy bar while SR and mangle are up seems more important and quite possibly more overall damage than perfectly using TF but having to refresh mangle or SR during the berserk or waiting too long to use berserk and missing getting a 2nd or 3rd one in. I mean, not saying it's bad to work out the precise timing issues here but more than many things discussed here this seems close to "angels on the heads of pins", ya know?
I mean, not saying it's bad to work out the precise timing issues here but more than many things discussed here this seems close to "angels on the heads of pins", ya know?
Point taken, and I think that was sound advice to just not worry about losing the 6-second damage-buff from TF in favour of Berserking early (assuming no threat issues in the absence of Vigilance/Hand of Salv). It's just that we run in to engage bosses so often every week now for years, but up until now I've never really figured out how it should be done. And we've all been in that situation at the end of a very difficult progression fight where Berserk's cooldown is counting down below 20 seconds, the boss is at single-digit percent health and you wipe wondering if you'd just Berserked earlier you might have upped your damage...
Also, thanks much Thendariel for setting me straight. Original post edited to reflect 1s GCD.
When analyzing that 1st berserker (whether to waste TF's 6 second dmg buff or not), you should keep in mind that typical cat has Mjolnir Runestone and DC:G or Death's Choice. Those tend to proc within seconds after entering combat, and with berserker up you can shred away through this time. My experience is that mangle, SR, rake, (potential shred if procs not up), TF, Berserker often matches with these procs. Fortunatelly our guild tanks dont have problem with that.
I recently thought about the "Clearcasts should always be used for shreds".
I'm not so sure about that anymore. There are 4 situations in which it's unclear and I just like to have verification on my thoughts.
a) SR drops just the moment and you planned to immediately refresh it the split second before it drops with 5 CP. At that moment you get the clearcast. I'm pretty sure it would be better, to SR first (which doesn't consume the Clearcast) and to shred afterwards. While you risk losing another Clearcast Procc you don't lose SR uptime and you don't waste CP.
b) Rake drops at the moment of Clearcast procc. My suggestion: Use shred. 1 second of Rake downtime means 1/3 of a Rake tick lost, which doesn't equals one shred.
c) Rip drops at the moment of Clearcast procc and you planned to refresh it immediately with 5 CP. My suggestion: Use shred. 1/2 Tick of Rip lost + wasted CP doesn't equals one shred.
d) Mangle drops at the moment of Clearcast procc. My suggestion: Use Mangle. 30% less bleed dmg for the whole raid for a second is more than a shred of yours can do.
09/14/09, 2:07 AM
(Assassinenhandschuhe der Sonnenhäscher - Gegenstände - World of Warcraft Datenbank von buffed.de)
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