I've gone over Murna's excellent priority list for a guide video, the following is a script excerpt.
Any comments are appreciated - the major differences to Murna's version being that I think the Mangle debuff is more important to raid-wide dps than SR-on-a-feral is, as well as being a little more inclusive with steps 1 and 2.
1. If you have 3 or more targets in range in front of you and it doesn't matter which dies first, use Mangle to keep up SR and use Swipe (Cat) whether it's talented or not. If you have two targets and it doesn't matter which will die first, pick the one that will last the longest and proceed with single-target dps:
2. Keep up FFF unless you have a boomkin who puts up IFF in the first second or two - and keeps it up.
3. Keep Mangle up
[many 25man raids will have a Trauma-specced Warrior who does this automatically, or a Bear tank]
4. Keep SR up - you want 100% uptime
[Though in reality it will drop during Innervates/Battlerez/phase-changes/run-in-run-out mechanics etc]
5. Keep Rake up
6. Shred
7. get 5 CP then Rip - unless Rip is already up, in which case pool energy and wait
8. if < 30 Energy then Tiger's Fury
9. if Clearcasting procs then Shred unless Mangle or SR is about to run out
10. if you have 5CP and there's 8 seconds or more left on *BOTH* SR and Rip, then and only then Ferocious Bite
[probably 9 or more unless you have very high crit]
11. anticipate if SR and Rip will run out concurrently, and clip SR to desynchronize the timers with a low-Combo Point SR immediately.
[Don't worry about clipping SR, but don't clip Rip unless you're about to lose melee contact with the boss for an extended period of time, e.g. Onyxia flight phase, taking portal out of Yogg's brain room]
12. Berserk as early and as often as possible unless:
a. save Berserk to take advantage of a boss mechanic
b. try to stack Berserk with cooldowns like Hysteria or Shattering Throw
c. do NOT stack Berserk with Bloodlust or Heroism - it leads to wasted Energy or wasted Clearcast procs
[unless there's a boss mechanic where you can't avoid it, like XT hard mode heart phase]
d. try not to Berserk within 6s after Tiger's Fury, nor at low Energy and not at above 85 Energy
10. if you have 5CP and there's 8 seconds or more left on *BOTH* SR and Rip, then and only then Ferocious Bite
[probably 9 or more unless you have very high crit]
What? 8? 9? Tell me how you expect to build a minimum of 8, preferably 10 CP's in 8 seconds? You'd have to crit like every attack which rarely happens. Even at 60% crit, I only get 5 CP's in 3 moves about 50% of the time...Unless you consistently SR at 1-2 CP's.
The idea is to get enough CP to get up a quick 1 or 2 point SR and then mash up 5 to get a 5point rip up as soon as possible (or 5 point rip then whatever you can get for SR if you get a good streak of combo points quickly). With a decent amount of ArPen you'll see an increase in DPS even if there are a few seconds where Rip is not up.
The 8-9 seconds remaining on Savage Roar and Rip is simplified however. Truly you should look for situations where you know you'll have an abundance of attacks or energy available after. The easiest to identify is Tiger's Fury coming off of cool down soon there after. Another harder to account for factor is chance of Omen of Clarity Procs (having 2t8 vs not having it) and your own crit chance. When looking at possible downtime of Rip you can also look at the damage gained by the Ferocious Bite vs several tics of Rip, which is affected by trinket procs (especially Grim Toll / Mjollnirs).
Coldbear, I disagree in principle with a lot of a lot of things. Specifically:
- If the choice is between keeping rake up and extending a Rip with a shred, I'll always shred. Even with 2T9, or 4T10. There's an important distinction between a Rip-extending shred and an energy-burn shred.
- I find little convincing argument that you should do anything but your normal cycle on clearcasting procs. It certainly doesn't make a significant difference in the long-term. I feel as though changing what I'm planning to do can have a disruptive effect on my personal DPS cycle, even if the math works out.
- Point 10, as Talanik suggested, has a lot of leeway. Yes, Talanik, people do SR at 1-2 CPs, especially to squeeze in a bite. Strategies can range from FBing with as little as 6 seconds of leeway on each timer to never biting, and there isn't a lot of separation between one extreme and the other. It also depends on set bonuses like 4t9 (makes FB a better energy replacement for shred) and 4t8 (small SRs are great, so less timer on SR isn't a big problem).
- Very few achieve 100% uptime on Rip; yet every "never clip Rip" statement holds that as absolute truth. Think of the times where you're just a little short on energy and need to wait a second for energy regen. Now realize that, on average, that's as bad as clipping a Rip over SR. It's something you can avoid with a lot of planning ahead, but you're not going over what that planning ahead requires in the guide. (Nor has anyone ever explicitly stated a "how to plan ahead" guide.)
- I disagree with the berserk strategy. I find that using both TF and Berserk concurrently lets me use my Berserk right on its cooldown, giving me a greater chance to use its cooldown again. Especially at the start of a fight, you don't have a good opportunity to use both, early, without using them at the same time: If you berserk first, you're letting 15 seconds of TF time go unused (in other words, you threw out half a TF, on average). If you TF first, you need to either delay using other attacks so you can Berserk 6 seconds after (leading to SR/Rip/Mangle downtime), or you delay your Berserk, leading towards the chance of not using a Berserk at the end of the fight.
In conclusion: 5 and 6 aren't how I would play, and 10, 11, and 12 are more "empty" in that they're not "general" advice but rather specific to fight and circumstance.
- I find little convincing argument that you should do anything but your normal cycle on clearcasting procs. It certainly doesn't make a significant difference in the long-term. I feel as though changing what I'm planning to do can have a disruptive effect on my personal DPS cycle, even if the math works out.
Energy is equal to DPS, since we are not limited by time, and that determines our rotation. However in a clearcast scenario energy is no longer a concern, and simply the highest damage per time invested will be the greatest concern. And that is pretty clearly shred (highest damage for 1.5 seconds investment.) For many people simply using FBN, Power Auras, or any of the myriad of tools that can help track clearcasting makes this a fairly easy change to make. So in this case I wholly agree with the guide, and it's something that should at the very least be mentioned in any guide to Feral DPS.
I've gone over Murna's excellent priority list for a guide video, the following is a script excerpt.
10. if you have 5CP and there's 8 seconds or more left on *BOTH* SR and Rip, then and only then Ferocious Bite
[probably 9 or more unless you have very high crit]
d. try not to Berserk within 6s after Tiger's Fury, nor at low Energy and not at above 85 Energy
Personally I find point 10, highly risky to perform with the strong possibility of a poor crit string. There is a significant risk of leading to a drop in dps as compared to not using it at all. Instead I would pool energy to 85, renew SR, and continue shredding back up to 5cp in time to renew Rip.
I believe point 10 is highly subjective to encounters and amount of critical one is at. I'm also a strong believer of preferring to have a priority on maximum uptime on my bleeds and savage roar & only inserting in Ferocious Bites when blessed with a good crit string and/or clear casting procs.
Perhaps I'm not much of a risk-taker, but I believe dps stability/reliability is a lot crucical to me especially on hard-mode encounters. In Ulduar, 2pt8, helped made Ferocious Bite alot more attractive to me , with the higher chance for clear-casting procs.
I do not understand point 12d.
My opening move as a feral involves, FF (when running towards boss), mangle, SR, and shred, this would put me at nearly zero energy, whilst having my most important buff and debuff up. Pop Tiger's Fury to send me back up 70-80 energy, and use Berserk. An 80 energy+ berserk, would quickly let me gain 5CPs to put up a Rip, as well easily gainning another 4-5 cp to put up a SR before the original one falls off. Fourteen second window to gain 9CP with TF Berserk. Wouldn't that be more efficient?
As berserk is on a 3min cooldown and TF's on 30seconds, using them together at the start, and using TF on every CD, would likely see them coming back up together again later on in the fight. Optimizing to clear your energy before a new TF+Berserk comes up, would seem best for DPS.
Otherwise I think the rest of your priority assignments are pretty decent.
Energy is just one resource. If energy were the only resource (and not time and CP), then we would only Rip, and it would do all its damage instantly.
Your time investment thought process is flawed. First, the time-spent decision only applies for casters who must be doing something all the time-- ferals have around 40% downtime, if you trust SimulationCraft. That time's not doing anything; you essentially aren't time-limited, unless you have expiring timers. In which case, you'd probably want to fix expiring timers first. So, the best clearcast is the highest damage, period, according to your logic. Which would be Rip or Rake or FB, depending on CP/set bonuses. Or the best contributor to future DPS, which might be Mangle (or swipe).
When you clearcast-shred at 5CP, you're wasting at least 30 energy used in your next cycle. Using a finisher definitely takes priority.
Next, your cat GCD is only 1 second, not 1.5.
Next, colliding timers. Go to the extreme case where every attack is free. What is the highest DPS cycle? One that still includes mangles, rips, SRs, FBs (but maybe not rakes); certainly not just shreds. It's not uncommon for clearcasts to come in streaks, where the "always shred" rule doesn't make sense.
So, whoever has done the actual math and shown it here, for current end-game content, for all current set bonuses, and can conclusively prove that you always want to shred on clearcast, step up. Otherwise, it's just repeating dogma. (Note: I'm not just talking out of my ass here. Go try changing some SimulationCraft attack profiles and see where in the priority list clearcasting helps the most.)
I put the "disrupting cycles" part in simply because this is a guide that will presumably be seen by players who learn to play the game by watching YouTube instead of reading/researching/playing. There will be a good portion that will get a proc, be startled by it, try to find their shred key, find it, press it 2 seconds after the proc, and then try to remember what they wanted to hit before they had to switch. For the feral beginner, I'd definitely recommend using it as what it is, a "free attack" so you have more energy for upcoming attacks, instead of another burden on an already-complex attack sequence. Especially when there isn't anything backing it up.
When comparing some attacks on clearcast you need to compare the possible gain of each action. By using Shred on the Clearcast in the above example (currently 5 CP, Rip just expired) then what you gain is the damage of one shred. What you lose is only 1 second of Rip uptime, and the amount of energy of using Rip. So scenario.
sec 0: 40 Energy 5 CP Clearcast : use Shred
sec 1: 50 Energy 5 CP : use Rip, costs 30 energy
sec 2: 30 Energy 0 CP
vs
sec 0: 40 Energy 5 CP Clearcast : use Rip
sec 1: 50 Energy 0 CP : use Shred (assuming everything else is up)
sec 2: 18 Energy x CP
where x in the lower CP is equal to 1+(crit% vs boss).
So the comparison in the top one is the full damage of 1 shred +12 energy vs 1 second of Rip uptime and x combo points.
Warning: Very napkin math.
If we convert energy into shreds, then 12 energy is 28.5% of a shred, so effectively rounded off to the first side is 1.3 shreds. The second side if we convert combo points into 30 energy and assuming a crit rate around 60% you get 48 energy, which is just barely over 1 shred. So it effectively amounts to 1/3 of a shred vs 1 sec of Rip uptime.
While I understand that kind of reasoning that goes into hitting berserk at 85 energy, and that berserk with more energy is > berserk with less energy, I can remember a number of times where I've just popped berserk and am stuck at 100 energy for 3 or 4 seconds because of a lucky chain of clearcast procs.
While that specific scenario is rare, is it at all worth popping berserk a little earlier - say, 60 or 70 energy - to take into account stray CC procs? Or, on average, it loses out?
I'd like to offer moral support, but I have questionable morals
That's kinda possible as well.
Though my use of an upcoming berserk, involves emptying my energy bar and popping Tiger's Fury before using Berserk, allows me to be relatively safe, incase of an early or numerous OoC procs.
Rolf: Based on that you're right, and it's mainly 1/3 shred vs 1sec of Rip uptime with minor dps differences.
I might now be in favour of ripping 1st , clear my combo points, to start shred/CP generation asap for more dps stability, rather "risk" having CP generation issues.
When comparing some attacks on clearcast you need to compare the possible gain of each action. By using Shred on the Clearcast in the above example (currently 5 CP, Rip just expired) then what you gain is the damage of one shred. What you lose is only 1 second of Rip uptime, and the amount of energy of using Rip. So scenario.
sec 0: 40 Energy 5 CP Clearcast : use Shred
sec 1: 50 Energy 5 CP : use Rip, costs 30 energy
sec 2: 30 Energy 0 CP
vs
sec 0: 40 Energy 5 CP Clearcast : use Rip
sec 1: 50 Energy 0 CP : use Shred (assuming everything else is up)
sec 2: 18 Energy x CP
where x in the lower CP is equal to 1+(crit% vs boss).
So the comparison in the top one is the full damage of 1 shred +12 energy vs 1 second of Rip uptime and x combo points.
Warning: Very napkin math.
If we convert energy into shreds, then 12 energy is 28.5% of a shred, so effectively rounded off to the first side is 1.3 shreds. The second side if we convert combo points into 30 energy and assuming a crit rate around 60% you get 48 energy, which is just barely over 1 shred. So it effectively amounts to 1/3 of a shred vs 1 sec of Rip uptime.
Editted: to add some energy conversion math.
That looks a lot better than your earlier post, but you throw away the combo points from math-- you get a net gain of x CP as you said, and the shred you applied goes into the "extra energy" pile instead of the "extending Rip" pile. These are non-trivial components of the exchange. This is also a scenario designed to be a "best case" in which you are both clearcasting and have free energy for your next attack-- and, you're "assuming everything else is up". What about all the scenarios in which they aren't? Remember, you're trying to prove "Always shred on clearcast", not "shred on clearcast when you only have to sacrifice one second of Rip."
You're not proving anything unless you prove the worst-case (instead of the best-case as above) is still better, or that all the non-best-cases are too insignificant to matter.
...
So the comparison in the top one is the full damage of 1 shred +12 energy vs 1 second of Rip uptime and x combo points.
...
Maybe I'm missing something, but why is the Shred damage factored in only scenario 1? Rip and Shred are applied on the target in both cases, only the order changes. Shredding on OoC proc follows the logic of using the highest energy-consuming ability as a free ability. But, for me, this is valid only under two conditions:
1) There is no bleed that is bound to expire
2) You are not at 5cp's (or if you are, there is no bleed about to drop).
For (1), I feel that having your bleed tick for an extra second and stabilizing your cycle MAY be better than saving at best (Shred instead of Rip) 12 energy and at worse (Shred instead of Mangle) 6 energy. Don't have the math, can't say for sure. In most cases I would probably refresh the bleed, if only for lack of quick reflex to change into a Shred.
For (2), which was your point, I do not see, as Allev says, how you can throw away 1 or 2 combo points in an energy efficiency discussion. In your scenario 1, you get to Shred, Rip and have 30 energy and a bit or Rip downtime. In your scenario 2, you get to Rip, Shred, have no Rip downtime, 18 energy PLUS the energy stored in the x cp's. For 1 cp, that would equal to a lowest of 35 if you would happen to use a Rake to get it and a highest of 42 if you would use a Shred to get it, while for 2cp's (Shred critting) the numbers would be 35 (a Rake crit) and 84 (double shred).
wow, though hit really ain't a major stat for us, your hit really is low, not even 200, with pyrite.
Just run naxxarmas like crazy and get grimtoll, it will probably be one of the largest easy boost to your dps atm.
As a quick note, I've noticed errors in my math again, which unfortunately invalidates them till I get a chance to update and go over them. (I need to convert to damage values and need to re-assess values of CP. Using values above work as very quick napkin math, but don't prove as strongly as needed.)
The argument isn't 'Shred is always better for clearcasts', the argument is 'Using Shred on all clearcasts will result in higher average DPS than using normal rotation.' And the result will have to skewed by the fact that they are aimed as a guide for general public. My opinion is that a much more complicated set of rules need to be written when determining max DPS that goes far beyond 'use your normal rotation' or 'always use shred.'
The only way to model 'always shred' vs 'normal rotation' with any kind of accuracy would be to establish what the many situations clearcast can proc in and the frequency of each. Then you throw out the ones that have nothing to do with the debate (in this case you would throw out any situations where both sides would naturally shred), and compare the remaining to determine how much extra damage each side nets. Multiply that net damage by frequency, compare, and voila, you have a winner.
Might be a stupid question and no offence meant but did you drop 4 t8 recently?
On a side note: Why do you skill improved Leader of the Pack? I would put those points into Feral Aggression.
I did drop 4t8 awhile ago. That's another thing I was trying to take into account, along with my personal failures. Obviously it's harder to maintain when savage roar doesn't last as long. Imp LotP is used because I was doing Anub attempts with my previous guild, and it was very useful for his last phase.
Edit: On a side note, can it be argued that glyphing for mangle rather than shred could in fact be a DPS increase for the situational fights of ToC. I've read all the theorycrafting as well, but it seems that alot of people struggle to get all 3 shreds into every rip duration from what I've seen. Is it a possibility that it could be a DPS increase at my gear level?
Note: If it actually is a possibility to maintain all 3 shreds per rip at my gear level then so be it. I don't want people to say "Well you can get the mangle glyph if you're bad at normal DPS". I want to maximize my DPS.
You figure most of us have a trauma bot we love and adore and take everywhere. In which case the mangle glyph is 100% useless... and with our overwhelmingly amazing options left of berserk and shred... shred wins. Also, with said trauma bot, it is infinitely easier to get your three shreds in.
Not that I have any amazing math to go back and prove it with, but I want to give you guys what I've found with ferlawl DPS and when to shred with clearcasts. It's infinitely simplified by having the trauma bot because this way one can assume the bleed debuff is there, always was and always will be type mindset. You also can reasonably assume by the time rip is ticking down, shred is not going to increase the duration anymore.
Anytime I actually want to build CP's and clearcast goes off, shred wins. The free shred vs at worst a second of rake uptime wins as 100% general bleed uptime on any boss is a fair assumption in any raid. The only time it's actually "iffy" is when you're sitting @ 5 CP's with, usually, a lot of time on SR and Rip with like 6 seconds or something annoying like that. I'd say it depends on your gear at this point in terms of how much haste you run. Only reason I phrase it like this is because a lot of us are getting down close to low .6's, maybe high .5's, in terms of attack speed and the odds of chain omen procs are greater.
For the beginner, this probably isn't an issue and my advice would be to wait to be able to use the rip, just don't sit there at 100 energy AND with clearcasting, that raises red flags all across the board. Waiting to use the rip increases the chances of getting some nifty bursted CP gen the next time and maybe a chance to FB depending on how long you've got on roar at this point.
In the end... the phrase "be intelligent" about how to burn clearcasts really ends up being probably my take-home message, especially with it being as difficult if not more so than Rolf speculated earlier to prove one way or another.
Question for glyph of shred: when it extends the duration of rip, is it increasing it up to a maximum of 16 seconds, or it keeps increasing it?
From what I can tell when in combat, it only ever takes it back up to 16; hitting rip and then shred too quickly thus feels like a bad thing to do, efficiency-wise.
Edit: apparently it was a UI bug, I changed some addons and it started to show Rip's timer extend past the non-glyph'd value.
Last edited by Nich : 01/04/10 at 11:22 PM.
I'd like to offer moral support, but I have questionable morals
Another question I have, not directly related to my previous posts:
Is anybody experiencing the following phenomenon?
You cast Rake. (Without a previous rake on the target)
Rake is not applied to the target.
Your energy is used as if you had used Rake.
Your combo point(s) are applied as if you had used Rake.
I thought I was imagining things when this first happened, given the focus for some ToGC fights. However, this has happened multiple times to me now, and I'm becoming more sure that I'm not crazy!
Another question I have, not directly related to my previous posts:
Is anybody experiencing the following phenomenon?
You cast Rake. (Without a previous rake on the target)
Rake is not applied to the target.
Your energy is used as if you had used Rake.
Your combo point(s) are applied as if you had used Rake.
I thought I was imagining things when this first happened, given the focus for some ToGC fights. However, this has happened multiple times to me now, and I'm becoming more sure that I'm not crazy!
Anybody else?
I was just wondering the same thing, as it's something I noticed during the raid today. This happens both on the times where I clip Rake, and on the times where I let it run out first. This was on all bosses in TotC 25 normal.
Another question I have, not directly related to my previous posts:
Is anybody experiencing the following phenomenon?
You cast Rake. (Without a previous rake on the target)
Rake is not applied to the target.
Your energy is used as if you had used Rake.
Your combo point(s) are applied as if you had used Rake.
I thought I was imagining things when this first happened, given the focus for some ToGC fights. However, this has happened multiple times to me now, and I'm becoming more sure that I'm not crazy!
Anybody else?
I always chalked it up to lag, but if other people are having a problem apparently it isn't. Its a serious energy waste :/ Hopefully Blizzard gets on to it soon.
You cast Rake. (Without a previous rake on the target)
Rake is not applied to the target.
Your energy is used as if you had used Rake.
Your combo point(s) are applied as if you had used Rake.
Personnally I've never had problems with the first rake application, but on the second rake cast, I see something similar. You can't clip a rake bleed with another rake bleed IF the bleed currently on the target was cast with ''more procs'' than you have now. In fact you can't clip a rake bleed (or any similar spell) with a longer, but less effective, rake bleed. That said the initial rake damage and the combo points are still applied, but the bleed timer does not reset.
I assume other classes see this behavior also for other spells. I'm unsure how this is handled for them.
This effect leads to : Will a '' NEVER CLIP A RAKE'' rule lead to a DPS gain, assuming you don't plan your procs?
As for the rake-clipping topic: Verify first that your timer mod is updated and supports your gear.
As to Rolfcaron's last post: I agree that the when-to-shred-on-clearcast rules aren't "easy" right now for ideal play. Which is why, at the moment, I'd say that the guide shouldn't give advice on "keep your rotation" or "always shred", because neither answer is really "right".
As for the rake-clipping topic: Verify first that your timer mod is updated and supports your gear.
As to Rolfcaron's last post: I agree that the when-to-shred-on-clearcast rules aren't "easy" right now for ideal play. Which is why, at the moment, I'd say that the guide shouldn't give advice on "keep your rotation" or "always shred", because neither answer is really "right".
I'm not entirely relying on a timer for my rake. I've physically looked at my target, and checked my logs to see if rake was in fact ticking. (It wasn't)
Having looked through my logs for the rake bug, I'm pretty confident that I haven't been seeing it, for the most part-- although I did see some wonky behavior after I switched to DPS on faction champions. Can they cleanse our bleeds or otherwise have an immunity to them?
10/23/09, 2:18 PM
And i havent seen any blue about it either!
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