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Old 09/01/09, 12:55 PM   #196
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
Haste has two primary functions: it increases your white damage directly, and increases the likelihood that you will get an omen of clarity proc.

Crit has the chance to improve every single source of damage you have save rake, and improves your combo point generation.

In general, haste is better at higher gear levels because of superior armor pen (which helps the white attacks quite a bit) and because your OoC will do more damage potentially, especially if you are optimally using OoC. Crit is better at earlier levels due to the value of having smoother combo point generation and doing more damage easily without optimal management. Both are second-tier stats behind agility and armor pen, and are often considered worse than hit or expertise if you're below the cap.

Neither should be directly geared or enchanted for.

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Old 09/01/09, 5:30 PM   #197
Plank
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Runetotem (EU)
Was wondering was the actual core benefit of making the transition of pure AGI to ArP would be. As of right now I have been through numerous stat mock-ups and could never find somethign that would be so significant it would be worth sticking too.

I've gone from semi AGI ( 1100-ish ) / Arp ( 250-ish ) to full Arp ( 710 ) back to full AGI ( 1523 - 2300+ with procs ).

Now with that in mind I went in to Twins 25 and found myself leaving with [Death's Verdict]. With this insane amount of basically free agility I decided to change to full ArP .. paired with the [Banner of Victory] I was sitting at around 710 passive and assumed my dps would increase noticeably.

Sadly it did not, I tweaked my rotation to see if that was the problem .. but nope, nothing I did could justify me switching to arp. After frustratingly spending a terrible amount of pennies on the AH I decided to go against what every guide I had read said and went back to my usual full AGI and use [Death's Verdict] + [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]. Stupid right ? Nah not for me, sitting at self buffed 1523 AGI / 53.36% crit chance normally or at 3037 AGI / 71.53% crit chance fully proc'd I noticed a vast improvement of DPS over my full arp ( Without grim toll ).

With all that being said, my question would be .. why is this ? Why in my case is it .. or why does it seem to be more beneficial to be in full AGI ? Other cats in my guild are fully arp'd and swear blind it destroys their old AGI days. ( Keeping in mind my passive arp far surpassed their arp ) Am I doing something terribly wrong while switching to ArP, would I need to mix it up with [Grim Toll] or why am I seemingly better off with full AGI ? Also, I was told crit is rather pointless after 60% .. but from what I've noticed. . the more the merrier to be quite frank.

My stats while fully proc'd in AGI -> http://i31.tinypic.com/24fck6w.png ( Sorry that's it's small )
And yes that's mongoose on my wep, am in the middle of testing ;/

Short version would be basically, In what way would going 710 passive arp benefit over my 71% Crit / 12107 AP in full agi ?

Last edited by Plank : 09/01/09 at 5:35 PM.

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Old 09/01/09, 6:52 PM   #198
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
Plank, it's really dependent on the fight and statistical value more than anything. But just a quick note - you should make sure you understand that you're trading 710 armor pen not for 71% crit, but for whatever that 710 armor pen - agility would provide. The only place that most people give up agility for armor pen is on the trinkets and gems, meaning that you're probably talking about a 300-400 agility difference.

Now, where this can make a big difference is in the rotation; higher crit means more likely, smoother uptimes and higher FBs.

Crit isn't pointless after 60%. After 60% crit becomes less valuable because you will soon be overflowing in CPs and you won't get as much a benefit, but crit is going to be valuable until you hit the glancing cap, which is something like 75%.

Really, without understanding what you're comparing it's impossible to say. Are you talking about raid buffed? About practice on dummies? Are you talking a 10 man fight or 25? Which fight? It all really matters.

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Old 09/02/09, 1:26 AM   #199
Plank
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by kalbear View Post
Plank, it's really dependent on the fight and statistical value more than anything. But just a quick note - you should make sure you understand that you're trading 710 armor pen not for 71% crit, but for whatever that 710 armor pen - agility would provide. The only place that most people give up agility for armor pen is on the trinkets and gems, meaning that you're probably talking about a 300-400 agility difference.

Now, where this can make a big difference is in the rotation; higher crit means more likely, smoother uptimes and higher FBs.

Crit isn't pointless after 60%. After 60% crit becomes less valuable because you will soon be overflowing in CPs and you won't get as much a benefit, but crit is going to be valuable until you hit the glancing cap, which is something like 75%.

Really, without understanding what you're comparing it's impossible to say. Are you talking about raid buffed? About practice on dummies? Are you talking a 10 man fight or 25? Which fight? It all really matters.
My excuses for being unclear.

With my 'tests' I was referring to Ignis and XT hardmode 25 man. 2 weeks on the trot I had tried with different set ups and dps was always around the same area. I am aware I am trading approx 400 Arp in gems and 80 in trinket for approx 400 agi in gems and 90 + 350 proc in trinket, but from what I had heard, passing the magic number of 250-ish passive arp and gemming for full arp would make a world of difference. But seemingly on the 2 bosses I had tested it was far less effective than AGI stack. I'm just at a loss as I'm positive Arp is the way to go .. but baffled as to why it is not working for me.

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Old 09/02/09, 8:24 AM   #200
darahj
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Muradin
Thanks for a great summary. This is very helpful. I do have a couple minor corrections you may want to make to this sentence:

"Generally I hardly advice you to use RAWR or Toskk's DPSGearMethod. The value of every stat depends on the rest of your gear."

I believe that you meant to say "heartily" rather than "hardly." Also, advise is misspelled.

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Old 09/02/09, 11:35 AM   #201
Pants
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Drak'Tharon
Originally Posted by Plank View Post
My excuses for being unclear.

With my 'tests' I was referring to Ignis and XT hardmode 25 man. 2 weeks on the trot I had tried with different set ups and dps was always around the same area. I am aware I am trading approx 400 Arp in gems and 80 in trinket for approx 400 agi in gems and 90 + 350 proc in trinket, but from what I had heard, passing the magic number of 250-ish passive arp and gemming for full arp would make a world of difference. But seemingly on the 2 bosses I had tested it was far less effective than AGI stack. I'm just at a loss as I'm positive Arp is the way to go .. but baffled as to why it is not working for me.
Some theories, none confirmed:

1. In the FbN post there's a graph that shows variance between a ArP and AGI gearing. The ArP gearing shows a tighter cone of possibilities, while the AGI line shows a much wider cone, including dps sim results above the ArP. So while ArP is higher on average, it's quite possible that AGI is higher sometimes/often.

2. Frankly, the difference between AGI and ArP gearing is not huge, and overshadowed by many other variables. I'm almost beginning to question if the DPS gain is worth the loss of emergency offtanking survivability. I don't know if anyone's simulated the difference at this tier.

3. In actual boss fights, there's more target switching and time off target, as well as non-ideal play. ArP makes your dps more reliable despite cycle / startup problems, but it also increases your DPS loss when not on the target. I have no idea if it's a net gain or loss in those circumstances. OTOH, ArP increases your burst damage, which might be more important than your actual DPS on some encounters.

4. Curveball: You might not have sunder up--in which case ArP is actually worse than AGI (or was, in t8.5).

3. The FbN sim depends on you to play according to it's suggestion engine. This assumes a relatively high number of bites compared to a lot of players. This is a pretty small factor though.

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Old 09/02/09, 3:12 PM   #202
Jheusse
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by Boevis View Post

Jheusse: The DPE from Rake will never be better than Shred without the DoT tics, I don't know how you think that's even possible at your gear level (not just mechanically, but experience wise you should know better!) When people are talking about "should we be using Rake" right now, we mean "should we be using Rake at all" since with high Armor Penetration, Shred easily passes Rake in terms of raw DPE.

In terms of priority: SR, Mangle, Rake, Rip. It's not just ok to clip SR, but also Mangle, and I recommend clipping them infact to prevent unnecessary downtime due to lag/misses. Never clip Rake, really no point in clipping it anyway. Rip can be clipped in various circumstances like at <6 seconds left with 5cp and nearly full energy, or (and I recommend doing this) when about to switch off of a Boss for a while (Razorscale taking off, Sapphiron frost breath, Heigan dance phase, Yogg Brain, etc.)
Boevis:
I do know better, at least in theory. As you've deduced, I've been in on some kills and gotten some gear. I'm mainly casting about slightly to eliminate possible reasons that my dps isn't landing where it likely should be, based on observed comments of other ferals here, various feral blogs, and even what Rawr is projecting me to come out with. First option was that there had been some evolution in the priorities we use for cat DPS, second was misgearing/mis-gemming/mis-enchanting, third was raid makeup/buffs, and fourth was simple failure to execute on my part/terribad.

So I'm not off on the DPS rotation and FbN's recommendations. I'm still Agi-gemmed since much of my cat gear is bear shared, and will be until I can truly separate them, but my gear is appropriate if not BiS. My raid configs are usually well set up, so I guess it comes down to execution on my part, noting that my keyboard agility is lacking and DPS often gives way to situational awareness, especially since I glance down at the keys and occasionally click my finishers like Rip.

So for example while I could excuse only 6400 dps on Hodir with "I was avoiding the constant icicles too much to live in spotlights, dead dps does no dps" I still wonder if I'm hitting the limits of my physical coordination and situational awareness. Ferals tend to top charts on a lot of Uld fights, but I can almost never catch the two rogues in my raid unless I have a good night on Vezax, and a fury warrior often tops me. I will at some point drop into the WWS thread, though the likely result is "dude you're terribad".

Anyway, to contribute usefully to the discussion, I agree with the clipping of Rip on cases like the brain and razorscale, the opposite direction is times like XT-002 just as he says "so tired" I usually try to cap my points and Savage Roar before the heart drops so I can burst as hard as possible early in the heart phase. Similarly the tentacles in the brain room provide quick combo points same way. Actually I do that on trash that's about to die too, who doesn't?

Cat notes in Ulduar, many of them I'm sure common knowledge:
1- Cat Feral Charge is almost tailor-made for getting into position on Yogg-Saron's Brain, I had too many headaches groping for good positioning for shreds, charge is perfect.
2- If using the "drag guardians to the door" method on Yogg, it's often not a good idea to Rip or the mob dies too fast.
3- I end up with a lot more mangles on Mim because he's constantly turning to face me, I mangle as I run through him.
4- Laser barrage is the best time to Berserk on Mim, the only time the bastard holds still
5- I prefer to Berserk while standing on a snowdrift right after Flash Freeze
6- On Freya I open the fight with hitting her with Rake a few times to get to 5CP as fast/cheaply as possible so I can start the add waves with a 5 point Roar up.
7- Auriaya I waver between continually single target dps-ing her (mangling since I'm at her feet) and working in swipe spam for the swarm adds. On the similar situation on Kologarn I stay single target.
8- For a feral cat, Vezax is Patchwerk reincarnated as a crayfish. My best night on him I think was 6100.

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Old 09/02/09, 3:26 PM   #203
Furial
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Stormrage (EU)
Are the dps values of 2xT9 and 4xT9 out there? Is 2xT8 + 2xT9 the way to go even considering ilvl258 T9?

Another question i want to ask since i'm in that situation now is: Was any study made already to determine which 2xT8 and 2xT9 items to take or if that is the case, which 4xT9 to take?

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Old 09/02/09, 4:57 PM   #204
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
While the 2pT8 bonus is good it's not good enough to get past ilvl 245 items, much less 258. If you disagree, you can check out an analysis of what you lose least at the FBN thread.

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Old 09/03/09, 2:29 AM   #205
Mowen
Glass Joe
 
Mowen's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Jubei'Thos
Im not sure if this is the best place to ask this question, we did heroic 25 man ToC last night and obviously getting those friggin' snowbolts off healers and casters is a larger priority than in normal mode.

The problem I have is finding behind the snowbolts. Sometimes it seems I am standing right behind my fellow raider and can hit it with mangle or rake but can't get in any shreds because 'I must be behind target.'

Anyone else getting similar kinds of problems? Is the hit area really particular? Is it even worth trying to shred or just mangle it up?

Any tips on dpsing those little shits would be very helpful.

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Old 09/03/09, 9:39 AM   #206
Ja7us
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Jheusse View Post
1- Cat Feral Charge is almost tailor-made for getting into position on Yogg-Saron's Brain, I had too many headaches groping for good positioning for shreds, charge is perfect.
A bit about this: the Yogg brain is confusing to get behind because each brain room seems to be in the same "place" for you as you go down, but they're actually arrayed around the brain at 120 degree intervals. This means that (because of the facing of the brain) you will always be able to shred if you run right up to the brain after Icecrown or Stormwind, but you will have to go behind the brain to shred on Wyrmrest (this is important if you used FC on a tentacle and it's not up to use on the brain).

You can just remember that the room that's the biggest pain in the ass (Wyrmrest) has the brain positioning that's the biggest pain in the ass (you have to run behind it).

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Old 09/05/09, 2:16 PM   #207
Fuzzywuz
Glass Joe
 
Fuzzywuz's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Crushridge
Originally Posted by Ja7us View Post
A bit about this: the Yogg brain is confusing to get behind because each brain room seems to be in the same "place" for you as you go down, but they're actually arrayed around the brain at 120 degree intervals. This means that (because of the facing of the brain) you will always be able to shred if you run right up to the brain after Icecrown or Stormwind, but you will have to go behind the brain to shred on Wyrmrest (this is important if you used FC on a tentacle and it's not up to use on the brain).

You can just remember that the room that's the biggest pain in the ass (Wyrmrest) has the brain positioning that's the biggest pain in the ass (you have to run behind it).
Or, you could simply feral charge the brain, which will automatically put you in the correct position to spam shred.

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Old 09/07/09, 4:32 PM   #208
Yogibear
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Fuzzywuz View Post
Or, you could simply feral charge the brain, which will automatically put you in the correct position to spam shred.
Sadly I feral charge in then run around trying to find my shred point instead of just staying where the charge is, never quite realized kitty charge set us up behind target /failme

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Old 09/07/09, 5:50 PM   #209
triman
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Cenarius
Originally Posted by Yogibear View Post
Sadly I feral charge in then run around trying to find my shred point instead of just staying where the charge is, never quite realized kitty charge set us up behind target /failme
Actually in one of the portals (can't recall which one) Feral Charge does not put us right behind the brain. You have to strafe a little bit around to actually be able to shred.

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Old 09/08/09, 3:22 AM   #210
Temelin
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Drak'thul (EU)
Just shred the brain from the south. Use your minimap. And you can save feral charge for more important work in the tentacle´s rooms.

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