Feral DPS Discussion - Page 15

Utkorg · 10/26/09, 6:00 PM

Having looked through my logs for the rake bug, I'm pretty confident that I haven't been seeing it, for the most part-- although I did see some wonky behavior after I switched to DPS on faction champions. Can they cleanse our bleeds or otherwise have an immunity to them?

i think there´s only the paly shield and CoS, which removes our bleeds...i´ll try to check this out on wednesday

Pelf · 10/26/09, 7:18 PM

I can confirm that Rake has been exhibiting some odd behavior since 3.2.

I haven't seen the situation where the Rake bleed does not apply at all on the first application; but, when I hit Rake and there is already a Rake on the target (forgive my clipping for the sake of confirmation), sometimes the CP will be generated, the energy will be expended, but the current Rake will continue at its existing duration. It's almost like it's the "more powerful spell is already active" error condition happening, but it's not stopping the cast, so the side-effects of the cast still occur (i.e. (1) CP generation, (2) energy expense).

At the same time, sometimes when I cast it, and I'm clipping an existing Rake, it will do what I remember it doing: (1) refresh the duration on the bleed, (2) expend the energy, (3) generate the CP.

As for whether or not, in the first situation, the initial damage of the Rake is actually landing ... I'm not sure. I need to remember to pay attention to that. If it's not only failing to refresh the duration on the Rake, but also not applying the initial damage, that's even worse than spending 35 energy for 1-2 CP and getting nothing else for it.

Smõkey · 10/26/09, 9:34 PM

Just posting to confirm I have witnessed the Rake bug as well. I will use rake and be awarded with a combo point, but the bleed itself is not being applied to the target. I use power aura's to monitor my bleeds/procs as well as visually looking at my unit frames to see that the bleed is not being applied, but I am recieving cp and using energy as if it were.

Can't confirm if it's a loss of damage or a visual error, as I'm not sure how to do those tests. But I have seen this bug numerous times.

Demnon · 10/27/09, 5:07 AM

No it's nowhere near the rip bug, it's extremly annoying in the rotation because if you don't see the dot up you refresh it automaticly and what if its actually bleeding but we don't see it? waste of energy for sure.
Not too sure if it's on certain bosses. Going to try look it up in my WWS.

Allev · 10/27/09, 11:46 AM

OK, you're not adding anything if you're just saying "me too." How about some details:

- Does it happen on a specific fight? I.e., cleanses/bubbles/inherent immunities might be playing a part. Or maybe the bleed isn't applying on the bubble phase of Twin Valkyr. Or is it every fight, randomly?

- Do you have a WWS/WOL/WMO/StasisCL/etc for the night? You can easily look at the combat logs in each of these tools, so either do that or link a parse where you noticed the problem at a specific point in time.

kbranch · 10/27/09, 12:36 PM

Some brief testing leads me to believe it's just the same "A more powerful spell is already active" problem we've had with rip for years. Rake's initial damage is applying the bleed, which is apparently now incorrectly checking the strength of the existing bleed rather than just overwriting it like it used to. Pretty simple to test, just watch your AP procs while spamming rake.

Unless somebody can show that it's happening with no rake bleed on the target at all, it sounds like the solution is to just not clip your rakes. Given that clipping rake is a pretty bad idea in the first place, it seems like a non-issue.

Negoveio · 10/27/09, 12:50 PM

I don't have any proof here Kbranch, but it did happen a few times with my first rake on the mob too.
Mangle + Savage Roar + Rake, and I was left with 1-2 cps, no bleed on the target. Have to assume I didn't pay attention to energy, but for sure the rake did hit, since I got cps and since I always walk around exp and hit capped.
Theres already a post on Blizzard forums, and I'm sure this is the most annoying thing we ever experienced with cat dps.

Pelf · 10/27/09, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Allev

- Does it happen on a specific fight? I.e., cleanses/bubbles/inherent immunities might be playing a part. Or maybe the bleed isn't applying on the bubble phase of Twin Valkyr. Or is it every fight, randomly?

There's no specific fight or portion of a fight where this happens and does not happen otherwise. It is consistent outside of the fact that sometimes the Rake overwrites the existing bleed and sometimes it does not, at which point it exhibits the behavior I mentioned above. This is consistent with a failure due to higher power due to trinket procs, raid procs, whatever.

Originally Posted by Allev

- Do you have a WWS/WOL/WMO/StasisCL/etc for the night? You can easily look at the combat logs in each of these tools, so either do that or link a parse where you noticed the problem at a specific point in time.

As it is quite consistent, I'm sure any of our recent WoL parses would contain an instance of this, but I have no idea how to search for it. Would you guys like a few links to our parses anyway?

EDIT: I would assume that an application looks like Player casts Rake, Target takes n Damage from Player's Rake, Target is afflicted by Player's Rake. I suppose you could look for that kind of sequence. What does a refresh look like? There are also bound to be multiple events in between these events. I'm not sure the searching capabilities even of WoL with regards to raw combat logs are robust enough for this kind of thing.

Allev · 10/27/09, 4:48 PM

Through the magic of WoL, I found it myself.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Remove the "Show all events" query and add a new query that looks for the spell "Rake".

You're refreshing Rake before the last tick, pretty reliably. Your parse says that you're seeing exactly what KBranch describes. I still blame your UI.

Pelf · 10/27/09, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Allev

You're refreshing Rake before the last tick, pretty reliably. Your parse says that you're seeing exactly what KBranch describes. I still blame your UI.

Yeah, I clip it a lot. My UI isn't displaying it as gone; I'm literally clipping it with full knowledge that I'm doing it. Luckily that's not what's at issue here.

[20:23:06.766] Shibumi casts Rake on Gormok the Impaler <- cast(1)
[20:23:06.905] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler *1139* <-initial
[20:23:06.905] Gormok the Impaler afflicted by Rake from Shibumi <- aura gain
[20:23:09.908] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 1783
[20:23:12.893] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 1783
[20:23:15.950] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 1784
[20:23:16.889] Shibumi casts Rake on Gormok the Impaler <- cast(2)
[20:23:16.980] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler *1596* <-initial
[20:23:16.980] Gormok the Impaler's Rake is refreshed by Shibumi <- aura refresh
[20:23:20.069] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 2584
[20:23:23.020] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 2585
[20:23:25.934] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 2584
[20:23:28.097] Shibumi casts Rake on Gormok the Impaler <- cast(3)
[20:23:28.151] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 676 <-initial
[20:23:29.039] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 2584
[20:23:29.039] Gormok the Impaler's Rake fades <- AURA FADE
[20:23:34.111] Shibumi casts Rake on Gormok the Impaler <- cast(4)
[20:23:34.218] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 676 <-initial
[20:23:34.218] Gormok the Impaler afflicted by Rake from Shibumi <- aura gain
[20:23:37.295] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 2412
[20:23:40.257] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 2413
[20:23:43.297] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 2413
[20:23:45.358] Shibumi casts Rake on Gormok the Impaler <- cast(5)
[20:23:45.420] Shibumi Rake Gormok the Impaler 675 <-initial
[20:23:45.420] Gormok the Impaler's Rake is refreshed by Shibumi <- aura refresh

So, looking at the bit we were able to get with your filter, we see cast(3) which isn't followed by a refresh. If we go with the notion that it was because the previously running Rake was applied with a proc of some kind increasing its power, then previously, as I remember it, that would have blocked the entire cast. Instead, it cast, dealt initial damage, did not refresh the bleed, and (ostensibly, from my memory) generated combo points. Then, the un-refreshed Rake faded.

EDIT: If you look at this World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis and paste this query [{"actorNames": ["Shibumi"]}], that's a bit before and after that range that's in the code block, above. I've been looking through this trying to find the thing that would have made the previously running Rake more powerful than the one that would have been applied when I cast rake at cast(3). There's clearly a difference as the Rake ticks go from 1700 to 2500 from before to after the refresh at cast(2). Ostensibly something faded before cast(3) which prevented the refresh?

Anyhow, I guess it's clear that the behavior changed. I suppose it could be looked at as an even greater penalty for failing to respect the full duration of your bleeds; though, I wouldn't say that it was working "properly".

kbranch · 10/27/09, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Pelf

If we go with the notion that it was because the previously running Rake was applied with a proc of some kind increasing its power, then previously, as I remember it, that would have blocked the entire cast. Instead, it cast, dealt initial damage, did not refresh the bleed, and (ostensibly, from my memory) generated combo points. Then, the un-refreshed Rake faded.

Rake is different from rip because it does initial direct damage in addition to applying a bleed. The game lets your rake go through without an error because it'll always do the direct damage. Your rake button is tied to the direct damage, not the bleed, if that makes sense. The bug is that the game is silently checking the power of the existing rake bleed after the direct damage lands when it should be overwriting it like it always has.

Pelf · 10/27/09, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by kbranch

Rake is different from rip because it does initial direct damage in addition to applying a bleed. The game lets your rake go through without an error because it'll always do the direct damage. Your rake button is tied to the direct damage, not the bleed, if that makes sense. The bug is that the game is silently checking the power of the existing rake bleed after the direct damage lands when it should be overwriting it like it always has.

Right, right. I didn't mean block the entire cast. Looking through logs is making my eyes swim. That seems to be the form of the bug, indeed.

Nosleh · 10/28/09, 8:06 AM

post deleted due to lack of information provided and bad formulation.

cana · 10/28/09, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by Nosleh

I've tried reinstalling it, however it seems that changes made to it still persist.

The Interface\Addons directory only contains the static Addon files, nothing you change ingame gets saved there.
Go to the WTF\Account\<youraccountnamehere>\SavedVariables directory and delete the FeralByNight.lua and FeralByNight.lua.bak to revert all the settings you changed in FbN to default values.

Thundrul · 10/28/09, 2:29 PM

@ coldbear

5. Keep Rake up

The rake bug is real, unfortunate maybe but real. (Easily seen on a target dummy by watching rake bleed and procs while only casting rake's).

Thus 'keep rake up' seems misleading and it seems that 'Never Clip a rake, while maximizing uptime' seems more like what should be done. Am i wrong?

kalbear · 10/29/09, 12:24 PM

If you can get death's choice, you should get it. You should always favor getting rare trinkets over tier gear. Always.

Ashurbanipal · 10/29/09, 4:17 PM

Think of it like this. Judging by how the trinkets have been distributed in Wrath so far there is a very good chance that Death's Choice will be competitive with the best that drops in ICC. The tier pieces in comparison will be made obsolete by even 10man gear.

Plus, if you need trophies go run ToGC 10 instead of worrying about DKP

Edit:Grammar

Allev · 10/30/09, 1:20 AM

To necro a topic from last page, back to clearcasting on shred.

The default SimulationCraft profile for my character loads up 8285 DPS. Removing the "actions+=/shred,omen_of_clarity=1" line results in 8282 DPS-- the difference is essentially nothing.

qu- · 10/30/09, 2:54 PM

You can replicate the rake bug with ease. Just rake a dummy, take your weapon off, and rake again. The bleed will not be applied.

Just don't clip and you will not have this problem.

Coren · 10/30/09, 3:47 PM

Hello, first off, let me say thanks for this forum. I have found it very helpful.

I have a few questions, as some of the stuff you guys talk about here is above my understanding.

1. I used Rawr to check my gear upgrades, and no matter what I do, rawr will not push me toward stacking armor penetration. I know my gear lacks arpen, but even when I swap some gear to increase it, rawr points me back to stacking agi instead. Am I doing something wrong? Whenever I swap my gems out for arpen it shows me that I will have a drop in dps, and I dont want to risk spending all that money on epic gems just to find out if rawr is wrong.

2. I also use Feral by Night, I see that small changes in rotation options make a huge impact on my dps, I am having trouble understanding where to set the options exactly to maximize my dps. I realize that there is no ONE perfect set of options, but I was hoping to get some pointers.

edited to remove some "help me elements" + my armory link after rereading the forum rules :P sorry about that.

Mielikinna · 10/30/09, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Coren

Hello, first off, let me say thanks for this forum. I have found it very helpful.

I have druid on frostmane, and I am trying to tweak my dps to give the maximum possible output, as I joined a guild for totc10 HC mode.

Here is my armory link so you can get an idea of where I am : Amory

I have a few questions, as some of the stuff you guys talk about here is above my understanding.

1. I used Rawr to check my gear upgrades, and no matter what I do, rawr will not push me toward stacking armor penetration. I know my gear lacks arpen, but even when I swap some gear to increase it, rawr points me back to stacking agi instead. Am I doing something wrong? Whenever I swap my gems out for arpen it shows me that I will have a drop in dps, and I dont want to risk spending all that money on epic gems just to find out if rawr is wrong.

2. I also use Feral by Night, I see that small changes in rotation options make a huge impact on my dps, I am having trouble understanding where to set the options exactly to maximize my dps. I realize that there is no ONE perfect set of options, but I was hoping to get some pointers.

My dps isnt terrible, just not as good as I think it could be. Just as a benchmark, I can sustain around 4.3-4.5k dps on the Heroic Target Dummy, with only motw as a buffed.

In raids while fully buffed I can usually get around 5.7k-6k dps on normal nuke bosses.

As for my gear, I know it still needs work. I am maintaining the 2xt8.5 + 2xt9 set for the bonus... rawr tells me that its better than swaping for other 245 level items. I am pretty unlucky when it come to drops, I know my trinkets suck, I just finished farming for +90 agi "greatness" trinket, just waiting for darkmoon faire to trade it in.

If anyone thinks they might have any suggestions or pointers that could help me, please let me know, and thank you in advance.

1. You are below 400 ArP, so its not valuable to stack yet.
2. I don't see Grim Toll or Mjolnir, so its really not valuable to stack yet.
3. Make sure you have custom gemmings set up in rawr, the default feral model doesn't have ArP gemmings.

Coren · 10/30/09, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mielikinna

1. You are below 400 ArP, so its not valuable to stack yet.
2. I don't see Grim Toll or Mjolnir, so its really not valuable to stack yet.
3. Make sure you have custom gemmings set up in rawr, the default feral model doesn't have ArP gemmings.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I know my gear is under 400 ArP, but even when I change some gear to make it look like I have more ArP, (I stacked it to 600) it tells me to swap it for Agi gear and Agi gems. And yes, I have enabled custom gemmings. For example it tells me that grim toll is lower on the trinket list than lets say banner of victory. I changed my gear in rawr to stack armor pen to the soft cap ~600+ grim toll, and it shows lower dps than my current spec.

Ja7us · 10/30/09, 6:50 PM

Make sure you have raid buffs enabled in Rawr. The defaults have them disabled, and they'll impact stat weightings a lot.

Cluey · 10/31/09, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Coren

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I know my gear is under 400 ArP, but even when I change some gear to make it look like I have more ArP, (I stacked it to 600) it tells me to swap it for Agi gear and Agi gems. And yes, I have enabled custom gemmings. For example it tells me that grim toll is lower on the trinket list than lets say banner of victory. I changed my gear in rawr to stack armor pen to the soft cap ~600+ grim toll, and it shows lower dps than my current spec.

Coren the difference between full agility and full ArP is not very big. If I change all of my gems to ArP except a Nightmare Tear in my hat Rawr estimates me going from 9012 to 9027 dps, hardly worth worrying about and a lot less of an increase than what you would get from changing professions.

So before you ask for more help on how to get that last little bit of DPS out of your character at least show that you really do care about optimising your character as much as possible and get some decent professions.

Mielikinna · 10/31/09, 1:59 AM

Originally Posted by Cluey

Coren the difference between full agility and full ArP is not very big. If I change all of my gems to ArP except a Nightmare Tear in my hat Rawr estimates me going from 9012 to 9027 dps, hardly worth worrying about and a lot less of an increase than what you would get from changing professions.

So before you ask for more help on how to get that last little bit of DPS out of your character at least show that you really do care about optimising your character as much as possible and get some decent professions.

Rawr does not model armor pen accurately, I had a similar recommendation in rawr, but upon making the switch in game, I gained over 200 dps. Rawr is not 100% accurate and should be taken with a grain of salt.