Feral DPS Discussion - Page 23

Deshkar · 10/23/09, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by coldbear

I've gone over Murna's excellent priority list for a guide video, the following is a script excerpt.

10. if you have 5CP and there's 8 seconds or more left on *BOTH* SR and Rip, then and only then Ferocious Bite
[probably 9 or more unless you have very high crit]

d. try not to Berserk within 6s after Tiger's Fury, nor at low Energy and not at above 85 Energy

Personally I find point 10, highly risky to perform with the strong possibility of a poor crit string. There is a significant risk of leading to a drop in dps as compared to not using it at all. Instead I would pool energy to 85, renew SR, and continue shredding back up to 5cp in time to renew Rip.

I believe point 10 is highly subjective to encounters and amount of critical one is at. I'm also a strong believer of preferring to have a priority on maximum uptime on my bleeds and savage roar & only inserting in Ferocious Bites when blessed with a good crit string and/or clear casting procs.

Perhaps I'm not much of a risk-taker, but I believe dps stability/reliability is a lot crucical to me especially on hard-mode encounters. In Ulduar, 2pt8, helped made Ferocious Bite alot more attractive to me , with the higher chance for clear-casting procs.

I do not understand point 12d.
My opening move as a feral involves, FF (when running towards boss), mangle, SR, and shred, this would put me at nearly zero energy, whilst having my most important buff and debuff up. Pop Tiger's Fury to send me back up 70-80 energy, and use Berserk. An 80 energy+ berserk, would quickly let me gain 5CPs to put up a Rip, as well easily gainning another 4-5 cp to put up a SR before the original one falls off. Fourteen second window to gain 9CP with TF Berserk. Wouldn't that be more efficient?

As berserk is on a 3min cooldown and TF's on 30seconds, using them together at the start, and using TF on every CD, would likely see them coming back up together again later on in the fight. Optimizing to clear your energy before a new TF+Berserk comes up, would seem best for DPS.

Otherwise I think the rest of your priority assignments are pretty decent.

Allev · 10/23/09, 6:39 PM

Energy is just one resource. If energy were the only resource (and not time and CP), then we would only Rip, and it would do all its damage instantly.

Your time investment thought process is flawed. First, the time-spent decision only applies for casters who must be doing something all the time-- ferals have around 40% downtime, if you trust SimulationCraft. That time's not doing anything; you essentially aren't time-limited, unless you have expiring timers. In which case, you'd probably want to fix expiring timers first. So, the best clearcast is the highest damage, period, according to your logic. Which would be Rip or Rake or FB, depending on CP/set bonuses. Or the best contributor to future DPS, which might be Mangle (or swipe).

When you clearcast-shred at 5CP, you're wasting at least 30 energy used in your next cycle. Using a finisher definitely takes priority.

Next, your cat GCD is only 1 second, not 1.5.

Next, colliding timers. Go to the extreme case where every attack is free. What is the highest DPS cycle? One that still includes mangles, rips, SRs, FBs (but maybe not rakes); certainly not just shreds. It's not uncommon for clearcasts to come in streaks, where the "always shred" rule doesn't make sense.

So, whoever has done the actual math and shown it here, for current end-game content, for all current set bonuses, and can conclusively prove that you always want to shred on clearcast, step up. Otherwise, it's just repeating dogma. (Note: I'm not just talking out of my ass here. Go try changing some SimulationCraft attack profiles and see where in the priority list clearcasting helps the most.)

I put the "disrupting cycles" part in simply because this is a guide that will presumably be seen by players who learn to play the game by watching YouTube instead of reading/researching/playing. There will be a good portion that will get a proc, be startled by it, try to find their shred key, find it, press it 2 seconds after the proc, and then try to remember what they wanted to hit before they had to switch. For the feral beginner, I'd definitely recommend using it as what it is, a "free attack" so you have more energy for upcoming attacks, instead of another burden on an already-complex attack sequence. Especially when there isn't anything backing it up.

Rolfcaron · 10/23/09, 8:09 PM

When comparing some attacks on clearcast you need to compare the possible gain of each action. By using Shred on the Clearcast in the above example (currently 5 CP, Rip just expired) then what you gain is the damage of one shred. What you lose is only 1 second of Rip uptime, and the amount of energy of using Rip. So scenario.

sec 0:  40 Energy  5 CP  Clearcast  :  use Shred
sec 1:  50 Energy  5 CP              : use Rip, costs 30 energy
sec 2:  30 Energy  0 CP
vs
sec 0:  40 Energy  5 CP Clearcast  :  use Rip
sec 1:  50 Energy  0 CP             :  use Shred (assuming everything else is up)
sec 2:  18 Energy  x CP

where x in the lower CP is equal to 1+(crit% vs boss).
So the comparison in the top one is the full damage of 1 shred +12 energy vs 1 second of Rip uptime and x combo points.

Warning: Very napkin math.
If we convert energy into shreds, then 12 energy is 28.5% of a shred, so effectively rounded off to the first side is 1.3 shreds. The second side if we convert combo points into 30 energy and assuming a crit rate around 60% you get 48 energy, which is just barely over 1 shred. So it effectively amounts to 1/3 of a shred vs 1 sec of Rip uptime.

Editted: to add some energy conversion math.

Nich · 10/23/09, 11:19 PM

While I understand that kind of reasoning that goes into hitting berserk at 85 energy, and that berserk with more energy is > berserk with less energy, I can remember a number of times where I've just popped berserk and am stuck at 100 energy for 3 or 4 seconds because of a lucky chain of clearcast procs.

While that specific scenario is rare, is it at all worth popping berserk a little earlier - say, 60 or 70 energy - to take into account stray CC procs? Or, on average, it loses out?

Deshkar · 10/23/09, 11:47 PM

That's kinda possible as well.
Though my use of an upcoming berserk, involves emptying my energy bar and popping Tiger's Fury before using Berserk, allows me to be relatively safe, incase of an early or numerous OoC procs.

Rolf: Based on that you're right, and it's mainly 1/3 shred vs 1sec of Rip uptime with minor dps differences.
I might now be in favour of ripping 1st , clear my combo points, to start shred/CP generation asap for more dps stability, rather "risk" having CP generation issues.

Allev · 10/24/09, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfcaron

When comparing some attacks on clearcast you need to compare the possible gain of each action. By using Shred on the Clearcast in the above example (currently 5 CP, Rip just expired) then what you gain is the damage of one shred. What you lose is only 1 second of Rip uptime, and the amount of energy of using Rip. So scenario.

sec 0:  40 Energy  5 CP  Clearcast  :  use Shred
sec 1:  50 Energy  5 CP              : use Rip, costs 30 energy
sec 2:  30 Energy  0 CP
vs
sec 0:  40 Energy  5 CP Clearcast  :  use Rip
sec 1:  50 Energy  0 CP             :  use Shred (assuming everything else is up)
sec 2:  18 Energy  x CP

where x in the lower CP is equal to 1+(crit% vs boss).
So the comparison in the top one is the full damage of 1 shred +12 energy vs 1 second of Rip uptime and x combo points.

Warning: Very napkin math.
If we convert energy into shreds, then 12 energy is 28.5% of a shred, so effectively rounded off to the first side is 1.3 shreds. The second side if we convert combo points into 30 energy and assuming a crit rate around 60% you get 48 energy, which is just barely over 1 shred. So it effectively amounts to 1/3 of a shred vs 1 sec of Rip uptime.

Editted: to add some energy conversion math.

That looks a lot better than your earlier post, but you throw away the combo points from math-- you get a net gain of x CP as you said, and the shred you applied goes into the "extra energy" pile instead of the "extending Rip" pile. These are non-trivial components of the exchange. This is also a scenario designed to be a "best case" in which you are both clearcasting and have free energy for your next attack-- and, you're "assuming everything else is up". What about all the scenarios in which they aren't? Remember, you're trying to prove "Always shred on clearcast", not "shred on clearcast when you only have to sacrifice one second of Rip."

You're not proving anything unless you prove the worst-case (instead of the best-case as above) is still better, or that all the non-best-cases are too insignificant to matter.

Nelkanor · 10/24/09, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfcaron

...
So the comparison in the top one is the full damage of 1 shred +12 energy vs 1 second of Rip uptime and x combo points.
...

Maybe I'm missing something, but why is the Shred damage factored in only scenario 1? Rip and Shred are applied on the target in both cases, only the order changes. Shredding on OoC proc follows the logic of using the highest energy-consuming ability as a free ability. But, for me, this is valid only under two conditions:

1) There is no bleed that is bound to expire
2) You are not at 5cp's (or if you are, there is no bleed about to drop).

For (1), I feel that having your bleed tick for an extra second and stabilizing your cycle MAY be better than saving at best (Shred instead of Rip) 12 energy and at worse (Shred instead of Mangle) 6 energy. Don't have the math, can't say for sure. In most cases I would probably refresh the bleed, if only for lack of quick reflex to change into a Shred.

For (2), which was your point, I do not see, as Allev says, how you can throw away 1 or 2 combo points in an energy efficiency discussion. In your scenario 1, you get to Shred, Rip and have 30 energy and a bit or Rip downtime. In your scenario 2, you get to Rip, Shred, have no Rip downtime, 18 energy PLUS the energy stored in the x cp's. For 1 cp, that would equal to a lowest of 35 if you would happen to use a Rake to get it and a highest of 42 if you would use a Shred to get it, while for 2cp's (Shred critting) the numbers would be 35 (a Rake crit) and 84 (double shred).

Deshkar · 10/24/09, 11:01 AM

wow, though hit really ain't a major stat for us, your hit really is low, not even 200, with pyrite.
Just run naxxarmas like crazy and get grimtoll, it will probably be one of the largest easy boost to your dps atm.

Rolfcaron · 10/24/09, 3:16 PM

As a quick note, I've noticed errors in my math again, which unfortunately invalidates them till I get a chance to update and go over them. (I need to convert to damage values and need to re-assess values of CP. Using values above work as very quick napkin math, but don't prove as strongly as needed.)

The argument isn't 'Shred is always better for clearcasts', the argument is 'Using Shred on all clearcasts will result in higher average DPS than using normal rotation.' And the result will have to skewed by the fact that they are aimed as a guide for general public. My opinion is that a much more complicated set of rules need to be written when determining max DPS that goes far beyond 'use your normal rotation' or 'always use shred.'

The only way to model 'always shred' vs 'normal rotation' with any kind of accuracy would be to establish what the many situations clearcast can proc in and the frequency of each. Then you throw out the ones that have nothing to do with the debate (in this case you would throw out any situations where both sides would naturally shred), and compare the remaining to determine how much extra damage each side nets. Multiply that net damage by frequency, compare, and voila, you have a winner.

Hammartime · 10/24/09, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by Versatile_EK_EU

Might be a stupid question and no offence meant but did you drop 4 t8 recently?
On a side note: Why do you skill improved Leader of the Pack? I would put those points into Feral Aggression.

I did drop 4t8 awhile ago. That's another thing I was trying to take into account, along with my personal failures. Obviously it's harder to maintain when savage roar doesn't last as long. Imp LotP is used because I was doing Anub attempts with my previous guild, and it was very useful for his last phase.

Edit: On a side note, can it be argued that glyphing for mangle rather than shred could in fact be a DPS increase for the situational fights of ToC. I've read all the theorycrafting as well, but it seems that alot of people struggle to get all 3 shreds into every rip duration from what I've seen. Is it a possibility that it could be a DPS increase at my gear level?

Note: If it actually is a possibility to maintain all 3 shreds per rip at my gear level then so be it. I don't want people to say "Well you can get the mangle glyph if you're bad at normal DPS". I want to maximize my DPS.

Trihugger · 10/25/09, 1:28 AM

With regards to the shred vs mangle glyphing:

You figure most of us have a trauma bot we love and adore and take everywhere. In which case the mangle glyph is 100% useless... and with our overwhelmingly amazing options left of berserk and shred... shred wins. Also, with said trauma bot, it is infinitely easier to get your three shreds in.

Not that I have any amazing math to go back and prove it with, but I want to give you guys what I've found with ferlawl DPS and when to shred with clearcasts. It's infinitely simplified by having the trauma bot because this way one can assume the bleed debuff is there, always was and always will be type mindset. You also can reasonably assume by the time rip is ticking down, shred is not going to increase the duration anymore.

Anytime I actually want to build CP's and clearcast goes off, shred wins. The free shred vs at worst a second of rake uptime wins as 100% general bleed uptime on any boss is a fair assumption in any raid. The only time it's actually "iffy" is when you're sitting @ 5 CP's with, usually, a lot of time on SR and Rip with like 6 seconds or something annoying like that. I'd say it depends on your gear at this point in terms of how much haste you run. Only reason I phrase it like this is because a lot of us are getting down close to low .6's, maybe high .5's, in terms of attack speed and the odds of chain omen procs are greater.

For the beginner, this probably isn't an issue and my advice would be to wait to be able to use the rip, just don't sit there at 100 energy AND with clearcasting, that raises red flags all across the board. Waiting to use the rip increases the chances of getting some nifty bursted CP gen the next time and maybe a chance to FB depending on how long you've got on roar at this point.

In the end... the phrase "be intelligent" about how to burn clearcasts really ends up being probably my take-home message, especially with it being as difficult if not more so than Rolf speculated earlier to prove one way or another.

Nich · 10/25/09, 7:07 AM

Question for glyph of shred: when it extends the duration of rip, is it increasing it up to a maximum of 16 seconds, or it keeps increasing it?

From what I can tell when in combat, it only ever takes it back up to 16; hitting rip and then shred too quickly thus feels like a bad thing to do, efficiency-wise.

Edit: apparently it was a UI bug, I changed some addons and it started to show Rip's timer extend past the non-glyph'd value.

Hammartime · 10/25/09, 12:53 PM

Another question I have, not directly related to my previous posts:

Is anybody experiencing the following phenomenon?

You cast Rake. (Without a previous rake on the target)
Rake is not applied to the target.
Your energy is used as if you had used Rake.
Your combo point(s) are applied as if you had used Rake.

I thought I was imagining things when this first happened, given the focus for some ToGC fights. However, this has happened multiple times to me now, and I'm becoming more sure that I'm not crazy!

Anybody else?

Ishundra · 10/25/09, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hammartime

Another question I have, not directly related to my previous posts:

Is anybody experiencing the following phenomenon?

You cast Rake. (Without a previous rake on the target)
Rake is not applied to the target.
Your energy is used as if you had used Rake.
Your combo point(s) are applied as if you had used Rake.

I thought I was imagining things when this first happened, given the focus for some ToGC fights. However, this has happened multiple times to me now, and I'm becoming more sure that I'm not crazy!

Anybody else?

I was just wondering the same thing, as it's something I noticed during the raid today. This happens both on the times where I clip Rake, and on the times where I let it run out first. This was on all bosses in TotC 25 normal.

jedilord · 10/26/09, 3:02 AM

Its unfortunatly been like that since the 3.2 patch

And i havent seen any blue about it either!