I went through about a dozen fights that are static or nearly static for me (Deathbringer, Rotface, Festergut and Blood Queen) and came up with 11.6% up time, which translates into 56 AP from the Ashen Band proc. The comparison is then the Bone Colossus gives you +.18% crit, +.09% hit, and 65 Haste at a cost of 54 AP. Also the Bone Colossus would produce more consistent results, since random procs are random.
Firstly, I would like to apologize for my non-familiarity with the inner workings of a cat druid.
As far as I know, Mangle/Trauma is one of the more detrimental DPS raid debuff for bleed-using classes, including MM hunters. During our raids as a hunter, I was usually concerned with a couple other important boss debuffs and not until recently that I started to notice that Mangle debuff isn't always up on the boss. We don't have a regular arms warrior, and only one regular cat druid in our raid. After conversing about the issue, he mentioned that at a certain gear level, keeping Mangle is actually a DPS loss for a cat rotation. I dug up about half of the posts on cat druid's forum thread but haven't managed to find a conclusive answer about this issue, only some stuff about using a "manglebot". Can anyone confirm/debunk this issue?
On a similar topic, I am actually a bit more familiar with Rogue's DPS rotation, and at current gear level, Rupture doesn't take a very important part in their DPS rotation anymore. As such, I'm wondering whether this can be a similar analogy to the cat druid's situation.
After conversing about the issue, he mentioned that at a certain gear level, keeping Mangle is actually a DPS loss for a cat rotation. I dug up about half of the posts on cat druid's forum thread but haven't managed to find a conclusive answer about this issue, only some stuff about using a "manglebot". Can anyone confirm/debunk this issue?
If there are two druids in a raid, the one keeping up the mangle debuff will do less damage than the other (assuming all other things equal). So in technicality, using mangle as part of ones rotation is a dps loss. But the debuff contributes more damage for the feral druid than he loses by casting it, so even if he is the only one benefiting from it he will see a DPS increase by keeping the debuff up. Of course, this fails to mention other raiders who benefit from the mangle debuff, and the raid wide contribution far exceeds what little he is gaining by leaving it out of his rotation.
The TLDR version: The cat is wrong. He needs to use mangle or is own DPS will suffer unless someone else is keeping the debuff up.
EDIT: Adding in some quick (and very dirty) napkin math.
Not using Mangle: 200-400 DPS boost
Bleed% of damage of overall damage: 30%
Benefit of Mangle to bleed damage: 30%
Assumed Damage (assuming patchwerk style encounter): 10000 DPS
30% of 30% of 10000 = 900.
Using mangle is thus a 900 DPS boost and at most a 400 dps loss. Total gain is 500 DPS.
When the feral has to keep mangle up himself, it is a personal dps loss compared to having a manglebot/arms warrior present to do it for him. (Though only a couple hundred dps worth.)
But, not having mangle present 100% is not only a dps loss for him, but for the whole raid who can use the +30% increased bleed damage. So long story short, your feral is wrong for not keeping mangle up near 100% if he's the only one able to do so.
EDIT: Adding in some quick (and very dirty) napkin math.
Not using Mangle: 200-400 DPS boost
Bleed% of damage of overall damage: 30%
Benefit of Mangle to bleed damage: 30%
Assumed Damage (assuming patchwerk style encounter): 10000 DPS
30% of 30% of 10000 = 900.
Using mangle is thus a 900 DPS boost and at most a 400 dps loss. Total gain is 500 DPS.
Did you forget to include 30% additional damage from Shred?
Personal DPS loss for a druid, who have to use mangle, is not high now. Its difficult to say, how much percet he lose. It depends on OCC at the right time, which is total RNG factor. Also, it depends on his critrate. Its known, that in very high critrate (buffed 65%+) the mangle figure as weaker shred.
Personal DPS loss for feral is much higher, when he cant extend RiP to its full duration throught the shred glyph, because he had to mangle instead of shred. Im not sure, if RAWR calculate correctly those shorter RiPs. It leads to serious CBPs loss and number of FBs could be half from a real potential - which is another ~4% DPS lose and then much over 7% total DPS lose. As I mentioned before, high critchance give enough CBPs to manage SR uptime and enough place to extend every RiP, which eliminate CBP loss.
About mangle uptime, DPS feral is the worst provider. His top priority is to not attack without SR up. There are situations in rotation, that feral has 5 CBP, SR up and no reason to apply mangle over 5 CBP, because his CBP loss hits harder his DPS than 1/2 bleed ticks without mangle. If we talk about AoE fights like Anubarak or Lich King ph1, there also feral have no reason to apply mangle, if his SR is up. He will rather swipe 4/5 targets.
If your feral realy doesnt mangle and he is the only mangle provider in your raid, hes losing 30% of almost all yellow - when his AA takes 35% portion of DPS and FB 8% full buffed, hes losing almost 20% of his overal DPS - which is more, then he ll spam mangle instead of shred.
Did you forget to include 30% additional damage from Shred?
I forgot to take a look at a lot. Frankly, I took the worst case (400 DPS lost is about double what I see most people declare it) scenario for having to mangle, and only the barest minimum of factors with the damage loss. Even in that rather extreme scenario the answer is simple. If there isn't a mangle debuff on the target, then a Feral Druid needs to put it there. Extra factors that weight the decision more heavily throw more weight to an argument that's already pretty unbalanced.
He did 15k dps at Festergut and he went into bear form once. Some new development I'm missing? I thought cat dps was complicated enough already but going into bear form as well? If I see this right he applies Rip, Rake and then goes to bear to apply Lacerate. He has Maul as third highest damaging ability. Shred caused the highest amount of damage.
2x T10 does give 20% more Lacerate and Swipe(Bear) damage but it that worth it to change to bear for?
He did 15k dps at Festergut and he went into bear form once. Some new development I'm missing? I thought cat dps was complicated enough already but going into bear form as well? If I see this right he applies Rip, Rake and then goes to bear to apply Lacerate. He has Maul as third highest damaging ability. Shred caused the highest amount of damage.
2x T10 does give 20% more Lacerate and Swipe(Bear) damage but it that worth it to change to bear for?
It's because Festergut applies a debuff called Gastric Bloat which increases damage done by 10% for every stack that is applied. So he probably went in bear to tank Festergut to gain stacks of the debuff to increase his damage and then went back to cat form for the rest of the fight with the debuff applied. It lasts 1.67min. From these logs it looks as though he gained 8 stacks of the debuff which would have increased his damage by 80%, but im not 100% familiar with wow meters online.
It's because Festergut applies a debuff called Gastric Bloat which increases damage done by 10% for every stack that is applied. So he probably went in bear to tank Festergut to gain stacks of the debuff to increase his damage and then went back to cat form for the rest of the fight with the debuff applied. It lasts 1.67min. From these logs it looks as though he gained 8 stacks of the debuff which would have increased his damage by 80%, but im not 100% familiar with wow meters online.
He probably tanked first, in cat spec and gear. When the the second tank taunted he was probably given Hand of Salvation so he could proceed to go cat with the damage buff. As he didnt have to tank after the third inhale the damage was probably heal-able.
I have done this in tank spec and gear before and can tell you the buff makes for very good dps.
This is a way to maximize dps if you are going for the achievement.
I'm not sure maximizing dps for Festergut has anything to do with going for the achievement. The achievement is to have nobody in the raid take more then 2 spores, which is essentially just more severe raid damage when he belches.
Regarding the tactic above, its nice and all to see big/flashy numbers, but you essentially have a 3 tank rotation and the net gain from the 1 person doing mega dps doesn't really offset the loss of a dps to use a 3rd tank. For example, that extra tanks in this report did roughly 3.4k DPS, take it and add it to the druid's 15.1k DPS and your total net DPS is around ~18.5k DPS on the fight. Now instead tank with only two tanks, a druid and random tank and bring in an extra dps. The last fight I tanked, I did 8.5k as one of the two tanks, then take that extra DPS you have from not using a 3rd tanks and thats and an additional 8-11k DPS (depending on the class of the extra DPS). Add the two together and its really a wash. In the end they are both about the same, but using 2 tanks vs 3 tanks seems like it would be less of a strain on the healers and safer.
Since Rawr ranked the [Barbed Ymirheim Choker] much better then my currently equipped [Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]. So I went there an fetched one. So, I gain 3 AP and 48 Haste, while loosing 48 Hit and 13 Crit. This seems to translate into 0.01 Speed gain, while I lose around 1% Crit. Is that 0.01 Speed really that good?
Since Rawr ranked the [Barbed Ymirheim Choker] much better then my currently equipped [Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]. So I went there an fetched one. So, I gain 3 AP and 48 Haste, while loosing 48 Hit and 13 Crit. This seems to translate into 0.01 Speed gain, while I lose around 1% Crit. Is that 0.01 Speed really that good?
Because you are WAY over the hit cap, so the hit on the Onyxia Tooth is completely wasted. So in reality it's 3 AP and 48 Haste versus just 13 Crit; pretty clear which is better when you look at it that way. And that 48 Haste is worth about 2% faster attack speak, which is pretty significant.
FYI: You need 8% hit to be capped in a raid (7% if you've got a Draenei in the riad). You have over 15%.
Since Rawr ranked the [Barbed Ymirheim Choker] much better then my currently equipped [Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]. So I went there an fetched one. So, I gain 3 AP and 48 Haste, while loosing 48 Hit and 13 Crit. This seems to translate into 0.01 Speed gain, while I lose around 1% Crit. Is that 0.01 Speed really that good?
You need to reread the first post, actually read it, don't just skim it, don't just look at the BiS list, read it.
Murna spent a lot of time writing that post up and it is a pretty good summary.
As for your specific question lets make a table to make it simple.
Could swap a Deft Ametrine out for an Accurate to be Hit/Exp capped if you hate messing up your rotation.
Oathbinder has ArP on it while Distant Land doesn't. The BiS cloak should really change to [Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak]. The above is what my BiS looks like as a BS/JC. I have access to pretty much any piece of loot in the game now, so I'm really careful about what upgrades I actually take since a lot of pieces aren't even worth it for me (ToGC 50 attempt cloak being one of them).
Obviously depending on what your professions are your BiS list will look different. BS and JC give you a lot of freedom when it comes to gemming. Engineering is most likely still better than BS for us, but yeah.
My BiS Lists (generated with Rawr, checked with Simulationcraft) show the 272 cloak as BiS... until Oathbinder 277 was introduced. With Oathbinder 277, Shadowvault becomes BiS.
You need to reread the first post, actually read it, don't just skim it, don't just look at the BiS list, read it.
Trust me, I did. Twice and triple over, but that does not necessarily mean I really get it. I already had to admit that I misinterpreted the hit-cap, so I re-gemmed the whole character. Now all Hit "falls out of the box" with just the items I have. And nope, we don't have a Draenei in our raid. Anyway, tonight it's ICC again, so I will see if the changes gave me the calculated improvement. Additionally, after reading some of the other posts, I slightly changed the rotation/priority, too. Did too much Mangle, I guess.
You should probably farm banner of victory/needle encrusted scorpion and in the mean time just grab mirror of truth over your mark of supremacy, even wtih the hit being used it's a subpar trinket.
You'll get better results going with 2 rigid dragon's eyes and 1 fractured dragon's eyes as that allows you to hit 258 hit and 1401 ArP. I netted ~50dps doing this in SC and 2dps in Rawr.
My BiS Lists (generated with Rawr, checked with Simulationcraft) show the 272 cloak as BiS... until Oathbinder 277 was introduced. With Oathbinder 277, Shadowvault becomes BiS.
Small correction: there's no 277 version of Oathbinder, I guess you mean the heroic version which is 284.
You'll get better results going with 2 rigid dragon's eyes and 1 fractured dragon's eyes as that allows you to hit 258 hit and 1401 ArP. I netted ~50dps doing this in SC and 2dps in Rawr.
I'm not seeing how you can get those numbers by swapping a gem. You basically netted +3 Hit and +6 ArP by swapping a ArP gem for a Hit gem. What exactly did you do??
The hit doubledips at this gearlevel due to being at the white crit cap. Also, ArP's value scales exponentially the closer you are to its cap. Also, I said 258 when it should be 262 hit. 258 was from when I used 2 fractured and 1 rigid dragon's eyes. I have bone collossus over the rep ring when doing my calculations as both SC and Rawr show it edging out the rep ring.
I've been doing some DPS sims with Ask Mr. Robot and Rawr. I've been following Mr. Robot so far and going with a mix of gear putting most of my red gems to ArPen and my yellow gems as Agi/Haste. Is this wrong of me? Should I just zerg and go for max ArPen? The two programs (Rawr and Mr. Robot) both have wildly different ideas on how I should gear. Right now Mr. Robot says I should change my Agi/Haste to Str/Haste and change my DV to War Token. Rawr says to ignore all that and go ArPen and keep DV.
I guess I'm asking what is more accurate to use. If this has already been answered please give me a link to the post but I was looking for an hour or two and found so no such post.
(I just got Frostbitten Fur Boots if that makes a huge difference)
02/04/10, 6:29 PM
I already had to admit that I misinterpreted the hit-cap, so I re-gemmed the whole character. Now all Hit "falls out of the box" with just the items I have. And nope, we don't have a Draenei in our raid. Anyway, tonight it's ICC again, so I will see if the changes gave me the calculated improvement. Additionally, after reading some of the other posts, I slightly changed the rotation/priority, too. Did too much Mangle, I guess.
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