Ikfirus's Sack of Wonder - Items - Sigrie

That chest piece pretty much solves any issues in regards to hit/expertise. And it'll most likely be what we use along with 4/5 T10 from what I could gather from the items released thus far.

Please stop the idle speculation on this trinket, Litte you are making the numbers fit what you want them to and nothing else.

I appreciate the ilvl calculations but read the proc as it is written not how you want it to be.
Chance on melee or ranged critical strike: Needle-Encrusted Scorpion
So it is currently using a different proc to [Grim Toll] or [Mjolnir Runestone], following the spell data link on MMO-C doesn't give a proc chance yet. So unless it gets changed to the same sort of proc we need to wait and see some testing data or more info in the spell data base.

The way it is currently worded would indicate it is using the same type of proc as [Pyrite Infuser], the listed proc rate for this is only 10%.
There is no reason whatsoever to think that it will have a greater uptime than the current trinkets in the game with internal cooldowns.

It's a neat chest item but the T10 chest has Crit and ArPen which we traditionally gem for over hit/expertise. If we weren't foreseeing crit cap problems we'd probably not consider choosing hit/exp over arp/crit.

However, given that we're pretty much certain to run into crit cap issues with ICC gear (if not hard cap then at least soft cap with proc effects such as [Death's Verdict]), it seems the value of hit and expertise will increase. Whereas those stats would formerly convert white misses into white hits, they'd potentially be converting white misses straight into white crits, with our high crit%.

It's interesting how the various caps will complicate our gear choices in ICC... we can't verify the numbers yet as we haven't seen enough iLvl 277 gear, but it seems plausible that cats with mostly 264-277 gear could simultaneously cap Crit, ArPen, Hit and Expertise (!). I guess the only stat they could freely stack at that point would be Attack Power (or Strength if there are free gems slots). I imagine it could potentially make trinket choices awkward, e.g. a "measly iLvl 200" trinket such as [Banner of Victory] could turn out to outperform various trinkets of a much higher iLvl.

As for the Needle-Encrusted Scorpion, it will certainly be a nice "stepping stone" for any feral not already in possession of a Runestone or Grim Toll, but losing value once the crit and arp caps approach.

Edit: Good point Cluey, I honestly overlooked the "critical strike" wording when I originally brought this topic up.

Wowhead PTR Indicated that this is a 30 ICD. So this gives it 50% more uptime then the other 2. (10/30 to 10/45) That makes it better than both GT and MR. Plus it's in 5 man content, which makes it accessible for everyone...

Except, usually most of our hit/exp values came from our tier pieces. If you look how they itemized T10, not a single piece contains Hit/Expertise. I know they aren't the most important stats, but you don't want to not have any.

You'll be gemming ArP in T10 gear as the crit softcap of 76% raidbuffed will be attained easily with just the agility on the gear assuming 277. You may need a few agi gems in 264 gear to reach that number. The biggest issue is that the crit cap drops by whatever your avoided attacks percentage is. For example, if 6% of your attacks are avoided due to being under the hit/expertise cap by whatever value that corresponds to, then your crit cap is only 70%, making hit and expertise extremely valuable in T10 gear.

Well it wouldn't be the first item on a PTR to have placeholder stats on it being under or over budget by large amounts.

I agree with you that providing them good feedback on the PTR will help the items turn out desirable but that isn't what was happening when this was brought up. You need data on something to provide good feedback, what we had going on initially was speculation on speculation. In the last twelve hours it looks like we have some data to actually work with, four days ago when it was brought up we had none.

Now based on the wowhead data confirming a 10% proc chance and the comments indicating a 30 second cool down I put it into Rawr 2.2.27 to see where it sits.
My cat gear isn't horrible but it also isn't BiS, until last night I was still using Grim Toll and 2pT8 which has me at hit cap (with squid) and three over expertise cap. Most of my gems are agility with recent pieces getting ArP, I haven't updated my Rawr profile yet so this is what I am comparing with.

Looking at the trinket slot I have Grim Toll in, [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] in the other slot, the three relevant trinkets are rated:

Trinket	DPS
[Mjolnir Runestone]	410.09
[Grim Toll]	363.70
Needle-Encrusted Scorpion	363.61

Keep in mind this is with my character so not a definite, this is how it is, rank. I have 416 ArP in this setup and 25 man raid I normally get setup in Rawr.
Just noting here that both versions of Death's Verdict are above the Runestone, the ilvl 245 one only by 13dps.

Swapping my gear around to accommodate [Mjolnir Runestone], [Gloves of the Silver Assassin] and [Leggings of the Broken Beast] the trinket ranks change to:

Trinket	Agi gems	ArP gems
[Mjolnir Runestone]	418.62	431.79
Needle-Encrusted Scorpion	371.80	380.86
[Grim Toll] (hit wasted)	262.68	272.49

The two columns are only changing the gems in the two new pieces, not all of my gear.
In this setup the ilvl 245 [Death's Verdict] is only seven ahead with agility gems and two behind with ArP gems. The ilvl 258 [Death's Verdict] is ahead by another 55ish dps and is what I would ideally like to replace my [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] with.

Looking at that it appears they have done rather well with the new ArP proc trinket.
As others have noted we will have a lot more ArP on the new gear so this trinket will become an upgrade for Runestone users as we get better gear and go over the soft cap. Personally I like the shorter internal cool down as your DPS won't fluctuate as much with and without the proc.

Yes a simulator run over them will be more accurate for sure.

I am only a couple of pieces of gear away from changing my gems to ArP, getting a Runestone was holding me back as the TotC/GC legs have such a large amount of hit so dropping Grim Toll was hard to balance.
I was playing around with gear setups and I can get to the soft cap with food soon.

What I meant was that given a straight choice between arp and either hit/exp, we'd traditionally take the arp regardless of being below hit caps, i.e. even with 0 hit and only the 10 exp from talents.

In reality we have of course ended up with a decent chunk of those stats anyway because of having them on set pieces whose set bonuses we value or because of not really having the choice anyway. With T10 gear this is sort of changing because arp-gear is the norm and hit/exp are exceptional to the degree that having them reflects a conscious choice comparable to actually gemming for them.

My point about it was that I expect hit/exp will become top value stats when you pass the crit soft cap, since they will then (among other things) start converting white misses/dodges into crits... such that gearing/gemming/eating for those stats will become the right thing to do provided you're gaining white crits by doing so.

Wait... I thought testing in this thread and further discussions in that thread were concluding that there's a fixed 4.8-5% normal hit on the combat table that can't be pushed off by crits? Meaning that with 24% glancing blows and then a further 4.8% "untouchable hit", the crit soft cap would be 71.8% instead of 76%? Please correct me if I've misunderstood this.

Crit Caps:

If you are full hit- and expertise capped:

68.72% - White Crit Softcap with [Death's Verdict] proccing (+ 7,28% from Procc + 24% Glancing Blows = 100%)
69,58% = White Crit Softcap with [Death's Verdict] proccing (+ 6.42% from Procc + 24% Glancing Blows = 100%)
76% - White crit cap (+ 24% Glancing Blows = 100%)
79.8% - Ferocious Bite Crit Cap (+ 25% Crit from Talent - 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%)
97.52% - Yellow Crit Softcap with [Death's Verdict] proccing (+ 7,28% from Procc - 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%)
98.38% - Yellow Crit Softcap with [Death's Verdict] proccing (+ 6.42% from Procc - 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%)
104.8% - Yellow Crit Cap (- 4.8% Crit Suppression = 100%)



If you're below Hit and/or Expertise Cap, your Crit caps will be lower accordingly.

Unless I'm horribly mistaken, the stat multipliers from the two talents and kings are multiplicative, rather than additive. So, 1.1*1.06*1.02=1.18932, rather than the 1.18 multiplier you're using above.