Feral DPS Discussion - Page 3

a civilian · 06/21/09, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by Murna

Berserk gives 50% reduced energy costs. So it would be 50% more yellow damage, but on the other hand we waste a lot of Combopoints during berserk.

50% reduced energy cost would be 100% increased yellow damage. However, berserk would be worth more than that even, because it doubles the value of your previously pooled energy as well. But then there are the mitigating factors: berserk doesn't double the value of clearcasts (worth about a fourth of total energy regeneration with 2t8 and a high gear level), berserk doesn't make dots run any faster, and (for the most part) you can't ferocious bite during berserk.

I just checked a few Ignis / hard XT logs (6 instances of berserk, but there wasn't a high variance) and my damage per time during berserk (no hysteria) was 50-60% above the average for the fight.

Boevis · 06/21/09, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Anubisck

In a 3 min. fight a the dmg boost during beserk and Hysteria would evolve in a total of 6595 average dps. I was hoping a little more.

It is not mandatory to use Berserk with TF, you need to have high energy 70-80. The TF buff fades as soon as you hit berserk. The only reason to use TF with Berserk ist when at low Energy.

Tiger's Fury Awards 60 Energy and a +80 Damage bonus for 6 seconds, you can treat that as 6 GCD potentially. When not used during Berserk, 6 seconds is 60 Energy + 60 from TF + 40 "stored" = 160 energy, at most that's 4 abilities (with 2 not being shreds) plus the potential for OOC Procs (~33% chance to occur in that 6 second window depending on haste). When used with Berserk, you lose a GCD from activating berserk, but because of the effective doubling of your energy, you'll be using a special attack every GCD.

Guaranteed 5 Abilities versus a weaker 4+chance for more. True, it's not a massive increase, a whopping 1.56 DPS increase getting an extra shred in there, but you need to Berserk at high energy, and the likelyhood of having high energy sometime other than TF is very odd.

a civilian · 06/21/09, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Tiger's Fury Awards 60 Energy and a +80 Damage bonus for 6 seconds, you can treat that as 6 GCD potentially. When not used during Berserk, 6 seconds is 60 Energy + 60 from TF + 40 "stored" = 160 energy, at most that's 4 abilities (with 2 not being shreds) plus the potential for OOC Procs (~33% chance to occur in that 6 second window depending on haste). When used with Berserk, you lose a GCD from activating berserk, but because of the effective doubling of your energy, you'll be using a special attack every GCD.

Guaranteed 5 Abilities versus a weaker 4+chance for more. True, it's not a massive increase, a whopping 1.56 DPS increase getting an extra shred in there, but you need to Berserk at high energy, and the likelyhood of having high energy sometime other than TF is very odd.

But as the post claims, tiger's fury fades when you gain berserk. (I didn't know this, but I just tested and it is indeed the case.)

Edit: I checked some old combat logs and this seems to have been a 3.1 change.

Ja7us · 06/22/09, 5:02 AM

It's also worthwhile to note that if you use berserk while TF is not up, you have to use it with at least 15 seconds left on the TF cooldown or you'll be losing potential energy (since the cooldown will finish but you can't use it until berserk finishes).

DataPhreak · 06/22/09, 8:47 PM

Perhaps I missed this somewhere, (Not likely, as i've been trying to find this info for weeks), and perhaps it doesn't really matter, but what about weapon stats? I'm trying to figure out what weapon type i should be looking for to put on my cat. From what i've seen, weapon attack speed doesn't seem to factor in to kitty or bear attack speed. So when picking a weapon for DPS, not taking character attribute bonuses into account, should i prioritize min/max per hit, or DPS score in the weapon tooltip? I.E. Dagger or 2h mace, which is better on average?

Boevis · 06/22/09, 10:54 PM

Listen, just because this is the "for dummies" thread, doesn't mean you should be asking questions that can be found on wowwiki.

You get AP in feral forms equal to the DPS of the weapon minus 54.7 times 14. You can see this number on any item with higher than 54.7 DPS.

As for which stats are better, go read the Feralbynight or Cat DPS Rotation threads.

Murna · 06/23/09, 7:46 AM

Originally Posted by Murna

Weapon - Berserking > Mongoose > Massacre > Executioner

I'm not so sure about this anymore.
Firstly, I read somewhere, that Mongoose is sometimes better than Berserking.
With my current gear setting, RAWR shows that executioner is best! I've got 497 ArP (with Hearty Rhino already).

What are your thoughts about weapon enchants?

Fuzzywuz · 06/23/09, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Murna

I'm not so sure about this anymore.
Firstly, I read somewhere, that Mongoose is sometimes better than Berserking.
With my current gear setting, RAWR shows that executioner is best! I've got 497 ArP (with Hearty Rhino already).

What are your thoughts about weapon enchants?

As far as I know, nightcrowlers work has the best up to date information about enchants. About halfway down his first post, he has a table comparing relative DPS values of our weapon enchants with respect to your gear level (he assumes Ulduar BiS).

FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

For brevity's sake, here's the order from best to worst: Mongoose--->Berserking---->Massacre---->Executioner

MegaVolt · 06/23/09, 7:13 PM

Armor is a stat with diminishing returns. Meaning: the more Armor you have, the worse it gets in terms of damage reduction percentage. The first 1000 armor are far more valuable, than the last 1000 armor. That is the reason, that ArPen scales better than linear. When you have only a little bit ArPen, you reduce your target's armor only a little bit - but we know that the last 1000 armor are not that important. But if you manage to gather more ArPen, you will reduce your target's armor more and more, which gets more and more valuable.
Short story: ArPen scales better than linear - the more you have, the better each point of it becomes.

From the Wowwiki:

However, in terms of absolute time to live with respect to melee attacks, armor has no diminishing return effect. Given a constant melee DPS amount, each additional point of armor (whether it be from 0 to 1 or from 30000 to 30001) will increase the tank's time to live by the same effective amount.

How does this fit? Armor for tanks does not have diminishing returns (in time to live), the same should hold true for the boss (again: in total time to live).

Boevis · 06/23/09, 9:23 PM

Because people are very bad at describing things.
Assuming standard Boss with 5x Sunder and FF (and that I can do math)
A = 8089 - 7774*ArP% (caps at 100%)
DR = A/(A+15232.5)
0% = 34.68% DR you do Damage * .6532
10% = 32.43% DR you do D * .6757 (.0225 more)
20% = 30.02% DR you do D * .6998 (.0241 more)

So as you gain more ArP each point increases your DPS by more than the last point

The Armor Doesn't Diminish argument comes from Time to live. If you have 100k health, and are taking 10k dps, your TTL is 10 seconds. With 30.02% DR, you instead are taking 6998 DPS giving you a TTL of 14.29. With 32.43% this becomes 14.8 (.51 change). With 34.68% this becomes 15.31 (.51 change)

Effectively, Armor, and Armor Pen both scale linearly in regards to TTL, but in terms of DPS, the lower the armor, the more each amount of armor you remove is worth. I hope that makes sense.

MegaVolt · 06/23/09, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Because people are very bad at describing things.
Assuming standard Boss with 5x Sunder and FF (and that I can do math)
A = 8089 - 7774*ArP% (caps at 100%)
DR = A/(A+15232.5)
0% = 34.68% DR you do Damage * .6532
10% = 32.43% DR you do D * .6757 (.0225 more)
20% = 30.02% DR you do D * .6998 (.0241 more)

So as you gain more ArP each point increases your DPS by more than the last point

The Armor Doesn't Diminish argument comes from Time to live. If you have 100k health, and are taking 10k dps, your TTL is 10 seconds. With 30.02% DR, you instead are taking 6998 DPS giving you a TTL of 14.29. With 32.43% this becomes 14.8 (.51 change). With 34.68% this becomes 15.31 (.51 change)

Effectively, Armor, and Armor Pen both scale linearly in regards to TTL, but in terms of DPS, the lower the armor, the more each amount of armor you remove is worth. I hope that makes sense.

Thanks that makes sense. So in the end it's basic math

TTL = HP / DPS. TTL will decrease linear with ArP and therefor DPS has to increase more then linear.

bloodcurdler · 06/24/09, 11:14 AM

For the BiS list, what would i use for an idol? Currently i am the only feral druid in our raids and we have no mangle bots

I am currently using Idol of the Ravenous Beast, but would i be better off switching to Idol of the Corruptor when i get it? Or just saving that for bear form?

Murna · 06/24/09, 11:28 AM

Your question is covered in my guide already

Originally Posted by Murna

Some questions often asked:

Which idol should I wear?
If you have to mangle yourself, [Idol of the Corruptor] is BiS for you. If not, then it depends on your ArP. If you are below approx 250 ArP, [Idol of Worship] would be your choice, above that the [Idol of the Ravenous Beast] becomes better. But actually the Rip and Shred idol both grant very similar DPS - the difference is really low.

Scrufola · 06/26/09, 9:41 AM

A small correction. Curse of Recklessness does no longer exist, the armor reduce was rolled into Curse of Weakness.

Doesn't change anything as it's still a damage loss for the warlock and could be applied by any lock.

Crucial288 · 06/26/09, 10:15 AM

Alright, i run into this situation quite a few times recently, It might be because of the amount of combo points i refresh my SR with or the time left on it already when i do, but quite often after a FB for example, I would have 5 CPs when both rip and SR are about to expire (~10 seconds).

So then i wonder, would it be worth refreshing SR early and having a few seconds more of rip downtime, or rather wait and refresh rip, then have a second or 2 of SR downtime before i get another combo point to cast it?