Feral DPS Discussion - Page 30

ramenchef · 11/17/09, 1:06 PM

Your math is slightly off Murna. You need 76% crit to cap white crits. It's not that there is a guaranteed 4.8% chance to hit, but instead 4.8% of your crit chance chance is converted to hits. Going only to 71.2% crit chance would leave you at 24% glancing, 9.6% hit, and 66.4% crit on a boss level mob. Bear in mind that when I say 76% crit chance, I mean your character sheet crit chance fully raid buffed in addition to whatever relevant debuffs, namely the 3% crit chance taken debuff.

In regards to the yellow crit cap, yellow attacks are on a 2 roll system, so hit and expertise are more valuable below the crit cap compared to white attacks which only use a 1 roll table. Basically, the game rolls to see if your attack lands or not. It does a second roll if it does land to see if it crits, meaning crit chance is devaluated for yellow attacks when hit hit/exp capped relative to being hit/exp capped. Also, Yellow attacks face a 4.8% actual crit depression, so your crit rate with them is merely lowered by 4.8% crit chance instead of being converted to white hits permanently. I speculate that this is probably due to how the code for crit depression interacts with the 1 vs 2 roll combat table system, but I need to do some more testing to prove that.

EDIT: Also, the idol provides 220 agility fully stacked, not 225.

thorngrip · 11/17/09, 1:07 PM

Thanks for the correction Tiffara... remembering which WoW mechanics are additive and which are multiplicative is one of those obscure things that I tend to mix up a bit

I was wondering why all my percentages were different from yours by a few fractions.

Murna · 11/17/09, 1:09 PM

I posted the formula in the guide (very first post):

1 Agi = 0.0129744% Crit (0.01427184% with BoK)

So the idol gives 220 Agi -> 3.1398048% Critchance

and thanks ramenchef for the correction. I didn't know that. I will include the Crit cap formulas in my guide.

For better understanding:

Against Bosses, 4.8% of our Crit Rating is suppressed and will be converted into normal hits.
We can't do anything against this on white hits. We will always have at least 4.8% white hits.
We CAN add more Crit to completely push off normal hits off the table for yellow attacks.

Is this correct?

thorngrip · 11/17/09, 1:13 PM

The 225 Agi number was my mistake, it stacks 5 * 44 Agi = 220 Agi just as ramenchef is saying. Pure mix up of numbers on my part. Edited my math above to make it 220.

Grond · 11/17/09, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cluey

Well it wouldn't be the first item on a PTR to have placeholder stats on it being under or over budget by large amounts.

I agree with you that providing them good feedback on the PTR will help the items turn out desirable but that isn't what was happening when this was brought up. You need data on something to provide good feedback, what we had going on initially was speculation on speculation. In the last twelve hours it looks like we have some data to actually work with, four days ago when it was brought up we had none.

Now based on the wowhead data confirming a 10% proc chance and the comments indicating a 30 second cool down I put it into Rawr 2.2.27 to see where it sits.
My cat gear isn't horrible but it also isn't BiS, until last night I was still using Grim Toll and 2pT8 which has me at hit cap (with squid) and three over expertise cap. Most of my gems are agility with recent pieces getting ArP, I haven't updated my Rawr profile yet so this is what I am comparing with.

Looking at the trinket slot I have Grim Toll in, [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] in the other slot, the three relevant trinkets are rated:

Trinket	DPS
[Mjolnir Runestone]	410.09
[Grim Toll]	363.70
Needle-Encrusted Scorpion	363.61

Keep in mind this is with my character so not a definite, this is how it is, rank. I have 416 ArP in this setup and 25 man raid I normally get setup in Rawr.
Just noting here that both versions of Death's Verdict are above the Runestone, the ilvl 245 one only by 13dps.

Swapping my gear around to accommodate [Mjolnir Runestone], [Gloves of the Silver Assassin] and [Leggings of the Broken Beast] the trinket ranks change to:

Trinket	Agi gems	ArP gems
[Mjolnir Runestone]	418.62	431.79
Needle-Encrusted Scorpion	371.80	380.86
[Grim Toll] (hit wasted)	262.68	272.49

The two columns are only changing the gems in the two new pieces, not all of my gear.
In this setup the ilvl 245 [Death's Verdict] is only seven ahead with agility gems and two behind with ArP gems. The ilvl 258 [Death's Verdict] is ahead by another 55ish dps and is what I would ideally like to replace my [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] with.

Looking at that it appears they have done rather well with the new ArP proc trinket.
As others have noted we will have a lot more ArP on the new gear so this trinket will become an upgrade for Runestone users as we get better gear and go over the soft cap. Personally I like the shorter internal cool down as your DPS won't fluctuate as much with and without the proc.

I did 90 minutes of auto attacks on a lvl 70 target dummy and the uptime for Fatal Flaws was 15%.
On Wowhead they are theorizing a 33% uptime.
I think the jury is very much still out on this one.

Allev · 11/17/09, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Grond

I did 90 minutes of auto attacks on a lvl 70 target dummy and the uptime for Fatal Flaws was 15%.
On Wowhead they are theorizing a 33% uptime.
I think the jury is very much still out on this one.

Raid buffed or no? While you might have made up for the crit by attacking the lower-level dummy (I don't know the full mechanics there), you certainly didn't make up for the haste raid-buffed, which impacts the uptime pretty significantly. Your lack of regular attacks would also lead to more downtime. You probably extended the time-to-proc after cooldown to twice as long as it usually is.

From SimulationCraft, ferals are doing something on 40% of cooldowns-- let's say 3/4 of those are attacks, being generous. So that's an extra .3 attacks every second. Add in raid haste, and you get more attacks. With a .9 second swing timer, 10% proc on crit, and 50% crit, you'd expect a proc on the 10th crit, or every 20th attack, which happens in 18 seconds. So you should get 10/48, or roughly 20%. Raid-buffed, your swing timer is closer to .7 seconds with 60% crit. Your 10th crit happens on your 17th attack, which happens in roughly 8-9 seconds; so more like 10/39, or about 26%.

So that takes care of some bias in your numbers; but there's clearly more than just raid buffs affecting uptimes. Any chance you have a copy of the log for us to look at? What other trinket were you using? 15% instead of 26% might mean its proc is being lost when some other proc is already up.

Edit: I found your log over at Toskk's. Run your test without Death's Choice/Death's Verdict. It looks like every time Paragon expires, the cooldown for the Scorpion is resetting to whenever DC/DV should be off of cooldown, which causes you to lose procs strangely like here (click on the "buffs gained" tab and highlight both Paragon and Fatal Flaws). And this is also making the ICD look like 45 seconds instead of 30.

And report this on the official test forum bugs list.

Edit2: Fail. I said 5 procs parroting a wowhead post without thinking it through. Of course, it's 10. And, your Paragon uptime is unusually high too, to the point where you're probably getting a few extra percent of that proc in exchange for your Scorpion procs.

Hoofhearted · 11/17/09, 5:14 PM

I think the average amount of tries to make a 10% chance happen is about 10. Grond's test should have ended up at 20% uptime and your example would end up at 24%.

Litte · 11/17/09, 5:47 PM

At this point anything, even hard data is specualtion, but it is appropriate to come out with proper logical assumptions for gear and the progression of armor pen from the current softcap with runestone to an eventual hardcap, and its is logical to assume you wont just use a better trinket for its extra crit, when it gives less armor pen as if we should ive less just because you need less, with no benifit from that decrease.

Litte · 11/17/09, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Cluey

Well it wouldn't be the first item on a PTR to have placeholder stats on it being under or over budget by large amounts.

I agree with you that providing them good feedback on the PTR will help the items turn out desirable but that isn't what was happening when this was brought up. You need data on something to provide good feedback, what we had going on initially was speculation on speculation. In the last twelve hours it looks like we have some data to actually work with, four days ago when it was brought up we had none.

Now based on the wowhead data confirming a 10% proc chance and the comments indicating a 30 second cool down I put it into Rawr 2.2.27 to see where it sits.
My cat gear isn't horrible but it also isn't BiS, until last night I was still using Grim Toll and 2pT8 which has me at hit cap (with squid) and three over expertise cap. Most of my gems are agility with recent pieces getting ArP, I haven't updated my Rawr profile yet so this is what I am comparing with.

Looking at the trinket slot I have Grim Toll in, [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] in the other slot, the three relevant trinkets are rated:

Trinket	DPS
[Mjolnir Runestone]	410.09
[Grim Toll]	363.70
Needle-Encrusted Scorpion	363.61

Keep in mind this is with my character so not a definite, this is how it is, rank. I have 416 ArP in this setup and 25 man raid I normally get setup in Rawr.
Just noting here that both versions of Death's Verdict are above the Runestone, the ilvl 245 one only by 13dps.

Swapping my gear around to accommodate [Mjolnir Runestone], [Gloves of the Silver Assassin] and [Leggings of the Broken Beast] the trinket ranks change to:

Trinket	Agi gems	ArP gems
[Mjolnir Runestone]	418.62	431.79
Needle-Encrusted Scorpion	371.80	380.86
[Grim Toll] (hit wasted)	262.68	272.49

The two columns are only changing the gems in the two new pieces, not all of my gear.
In this setup the ilvl 245 [Death's Verdict] is only seven ahead with agility gems and two behind with ArP gems. The ilvl 258 [Death's Verdict] is ahead by another 55ish dps and is what I would ideally like to replace my [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] with.

Looking at that it appears they have done rather well with the new ArP proc trinket.
As others have noted we will have a lot more ArP on the new gear so this trinket will become an upgrade for Runestone users as we get better gear and go over the soft cap. Personally I like the shorter internal cool down as your DPS won't fluctuate as much with and without the proc.

My post was not about facts, but like most posts, about the what are the implications of this trinket. TY for the 30 second post, which is what I was saying was mostly likely, just from playing the game and actually understanding gear. But the point is, now you are introducing numbers that are not even in the context of where this trinket will fit in, for an unbetween armor pen current soft cap and later hardcap. It will be obviously better than runestone, when you actually get your softcap to the point where this trinket needs, not runestone. If you run numbers with 948 armor pen, and a crit of 65+% as a minimum, this trinket is designed for this, and its where the lesser amount and higher proc comes into play, its not a higher item level because item levels are random, its a trinket that serves the same purpose as the runestone and is balanced accordingly.

Leviathon · 11/17/09, 7:24 PM

The Needle-Encrusted Scorpion had it's stats finished in today's PTR build and gives 678 Armor Penetration.

Rijndael · 11/23/09, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by Hoofhearted

I think the average amount of tries to make a 10% chance happen is about 10. Grond's test should have ended up at 20% uptime and your example would end up at 24%.

I am not sure what you mean by "average number of tries to make a 10% chance happen." If an event has a 10% chance of happening, and you are allowed to make independent tries at the event, the amount of tries after which the probability of the event not happening is less than 50% is 7. The amount of tries after which the probability of the event not happening is less than 10% is 22. And so on.

Allev · 11/23/09, 11:44 AM

It means exactly what it says-- while you have a 50% chance of having it less than 7 chances, you also have a real chance of it not happening in over 20 chances. But the average of all possibilities will end up being 10 chances.

Maoxiong · 11/24/09, 1:18 PM

Does anyone happen to have actual values for the various set bonuses? I see that Rawr dynamically adjusts gear values when you have one piece in another slot. It is unclear to me what the value of the set bonus on its own it is, however.

For example, if I tell Rawr I have a Tier 8 helm on, the value of the Tier 8 gloves increases by around 160. Is this the full value (on the Rawr scale) of the Tier 8 2 piece bonus? Or is this half the value, and the other half the value is expressed by bumping up the first piece of gear?

Laupen · 11/24/09, 4:41 PM

If you look under "Current Buffs" you will find a row labled "Tier 8 2 pc Bonus" which is the value of the bonus alone, independant of the stats of each piece.

Cluey · 11/27/09, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Laupen

If you look under "Current Buffs" you will find a row labled "Tier 8 2 pc Bonus" which is the value of the bonus alone, independant of the stats of each piece.

In addition to this you can choose all buffs and scroll through the list to see the value of all of the modeled set bonuses. This might be more what Maoxiong was looking for as it sounds like he is trying to break a set bonus with new gear.