Feral DPS Discussion - Page 34

Rolfcaron · 12/22/09, 3:28 PM

My energy pooling comment was not a jab at SC by any means. It's simply that if there is no reason to pool energy within the next 10 seconds then burning that energy quickly would seem to be the higher DPS choice. Reason being if you get lucky crits plus an OoC you could very well burn a low energy FB without hurting anything. If you pool energy too often then you run the risk of burning more energy than you need to with an opportunity to FB, or even worse cap energy with an unlucky set of OoC procs. This is not a statement against pooling energy, not in the slightest. It's a statement about planning as far ahead as possible. For the most part I pool before I SR (as inevitably I am going to clip it by a few seconds), before I rake (so that I can re-apply it immediately once it goes down), Berserk, and Rip if necessary. But I look ahead to these things and know when they're coming. If however more energy pooling is more efficient then I will have to hit up a dummy and do some testing of my own to discover more situations where I personally need to pool energy more.

My comments on Hit and Expertise values along with Crit Cap could be best stated as Agi / Crit concerns. But the way these interact is complicated, and not likely to be reached in T9 content without some very lucky gearing or choosing to Gem Agi. Given that this is a thread aimed at Cat DPS for dummies, I chose to state it mostly as a concern in ICC gearing, where the values will be skyrocketing enough that suddenly these values are front and center for most cats rather then the select few (who in all likelihood aren't using this thread anyway).

Allev · 12/22/09, 3:47 PM

I didn't take it as a swipe at SC to energy pool-- I was merely wondering if there was something I haven't considered for the SC profiles (as I'm sure they're not playing ideally, but then again, no one's really codified "planning ahead" to a sufficient degree.) You're right, though, in that if you're in a situation where you can squeeze in an FB, you should burn energy with shred. I'll add that to the list of profile additions in the new SC profile (whenever that happens).

I'm actually one of the people for whom the crit cap is relevant in T9 gear-- it turned out I had crit gear in many of my slots and I was agi-gemmed for dual set tanking benefits; switching from [Grim Toll] to [Needle-Encrusted Scorpion] took me from "not worried about the crit cap" to "over the crit cap with procs" pretty quickly. I imagine that a lot of druids that are hybrid gearing (even with a Mongoose enchant instead of Berserking) or double-proc with DMC:G and DV/DC are affected and simply don't know it.

RareBeast · 12/22/09, 10:34 PM

There was a problem with the V2.3.3 version of Rawr's database. Many of the items don't have their stats. If you upgrade the database from the armory (or wait for v2.3.4 which should be released tonight apparently) then you can use Rawr again.

Inaiwae · 12/26/09, 4:41 AM

Originally Posted by Allev

... I imagine that a lot of druids that are hybrid gearing (even with a Mongoose enchant instead of Berserking) or double-proc with DMC:G and DV/DC are affected and simply don't know it.

The soft crit cap is not in fact 76%, but 73%, since there's 3% crit debuff on the mob.

Procs with kings (i assume kings affect the procs, but if not correct me):

DM:G (330 agi): 3.96%
DV245 (495 agi): 5.94%
DV258 (561 agi): 6.732%
DBW (660 agi): 7.92%
Idol of mutilation (220 agi): 2.64%
Idol of the crying moon (242 agi); 2.904%
Mongoose (132 agi): 1.584%

ramenchef · 12/26/09, 4:37 PM

Crit debuff is actually 4.8-5.0%.

Rolfcaron · 12/26/09, 5:25 PM

He's referring to Ele Shaman's ToW, or the Ret Pallies Heart of the Crusader. You're probably referring to the Crit Suppression the boss has on him.

100% - 24% (glancing blows) - 4.8% (crit suppression) + 3% seems to equal 74.2%, meaning that any crit above 74.2% on your paperdoll is wasted. At this point Crit's value takes a nosedive as it no longer affects white attacks, and pretty much doesn't affect FB anymore, so in a high FB build you're looking at roughly 30% of your damage no longer benefiting from Crit. Not that it becomes meaningless, and if you get there via procs then chances are those procs are still highly valuable.

Allev · 12/26/09, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Inaiwae

The soft crit cap is not in fact 76%, but 73%, since there's 3% crit debuff on the mob.

Procs with kings (i assume kings affect the procs, but if not correct me):

DM:G (330 agi): 3.96%
DV245 (495 agi): 5.94%
DV258 (561 agi): 6.732%
DBW (660 agi): 7.92%
Idol of mutilation (220 agi): 2.64%
Idol of the crying moon (242 agi); 2.904%
Mongoose (132 agi): 1.584%

In addition to Kings is the %-to-stats talents that we have, increasing those procs even more. To revise, you get:

DM:G: 4.28%
DV245: 6.42%
DV258: 7.28%
DBW264: 8.56%
DBW277: 9.99%
Idol of mutilation: 2.85%
Idol of the crying moon: 3.14%
Mongoose: 1.71%

All measurements calculated with Toskk's rather than Agi by hand.

I wonder if the 3% boss chance to be crit affects the crit depression interaction? I don't think I've seen it tested. That's a question for the crit depression thread, I suppose.

Inaiwae · 12/28/09, 6:43 AM

Thanks for correction.

Originally Posted by Rolfcaron

He's referring to Ele Shaman's ToW, or the Ret Pallies Heart of the Crusader. You're probably referring to the Crit Suppression the boss has on him.

100% - 24% (glancing blows) - 4.8% (crit suppression) + 3% seems to equal 74.2%, meaning that any crit above 74.2% on your paperdoll is wasted. At this point Crit's value takes a nosedive as it no longer affects white attacks, and pretty much doesn't affect FB anymore, so in a high FB build you're looking at roughly 30% of your damage no longer benefiting from Crit. Not that it becomes meaningless, and if you get there via procs then chances are those procs are still highly valuable.

According to http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t76785-c..._combat_table/ , the crit depression does not affect crit cap.

As it seems now, 4.8% of your criticals against a boss are converted to hits (tested for rogues and warriors as far as i know), no matter what your crit chance is.

I also dont understand why you add the 3% to the cap formula. If it is the crit debuff, shouldn't you subtract it?

Allev · 12/28/09, 12:55 PM

The crit depression does not affect the yellow crit cap. It very much affects the white crit cap. Perhaps you need to understand the "converted to hits" part. Those hits can never crit, which means crit rating stops working above 76% on your character sheet. Which makes the crit cap 71.2%.

Except yes, the 3% would make it 68.2%, if ToW/HotC/MP don't show up on the character sheet.

Inaiwae · 12/28/09, 6:13 PM

I am quite sure i understand it correctly.

Lets forget the 3% debuff for now, and consider hit and expertise capped player.

76% crit on char sheet gives the following agains boss:
- 24% glancing
- 4.8% hits
- 71.2 % crits

71% crit on char sheet gives the following against the boss:
- 24% glancing
- 9.8% hit
- 66.2% crits

So the cap is 76%, not 71.2%. Crit depression does not affect it (or better said, does not affect our gearing choices - we still want to have that 76% crit on char sheet).

Maybe it is just unclear terms. The cap for me means the crit % which i need to take into consideration when choosing gear. Not the actual crit rate i achieve against a boss.

NOTE: the above numbers ignore 3% crit debuff on boss.

Murna · 12/29/09, 8:06 AM

This is only true for whit hits.

For yellow hits, we can reach 100% crit. You would need 104.8% critical strike chance to always crit with special attacks.

On another note: I noticed Feral Faerie Fire (Bear) critting in 5-Mans, but not in raids. Can somebody explain this to me?

Pioneerjd · 12/29/09, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Murna

On another note: I noticed Feral Faerie Fire (Bear) critting in 5-Mans, but not in raids. Can somebody explain this to me?

Do you have a log of this? I tanked most of TOC/ICC last night and ended up with:

Faerie Fire (Feral) 199975 (Total) - 106 (Hits) 1357.4 (Average) - 26 (Crits) 2157.2 (Average)

Allev · 12/29/09, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Inaiwae

Maybe it is just unclear terms. The cap for me means the crit % which i need to take into consideration when choosing gear. Not the actual crit rate i achieve against a boss.

Yeah, I've always seen it described from the reference point of "what's the maximum crit that tool X will use" instead of "what's the most crit I can get on my in-game character sheet", because all the tools will be calculating out the "real" crit percentage instead of the character sheet percentage. It's a valid (and useful) vantage point, but one that I haven't seen on the theory side of the discussion.

Blazefire · 12/29/09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Murna

On another note: I noticed Feral Faerie Fire (Bear) critting in 5-Mans, but not in raids. Can somebody explain this to me?

Ran a ToGC10 last night and was critting in bear as well:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

kalbear · 12/29/09, 12:06 PM

On another note: I noticed Feral Faerie Fire (Bear) critting in 5-Mans, but not in raids. Can somebody explain this to me?

Selection bias and small sample size.