Feral DPS Discussion - Page 38

Allev · 01/18/10, 9:48 AM

You're completely right about Hysteria/DRW, my mistake.

But I don't see how the rest is really accurate. If you aren't using Death Coils in between 11 swings, you're wasting RP. From reading the Blood DPS post on DRW, it says that you want to refresh diseases after you cast DRW-- meaning it's not active for 100% of Hysteria. If you're not refreshing diseases while DRW is up, then your DRW doesn't take advantage of any diseases. While it may be more optimal for your character to use Death Strikes and ignore diseases/RP during Hysteria, you're not getting a flat 20% benefit over normal damage by doing that-- otherwise you'd do that all the time.

Valimar · 01/18/10, 2:54 PM

RP dumps are more an afterthought while your main portion of damage is strike based, when you've a limited amount of time to put out as much damage as possible (the DRW phase) you prioritise your hard hitting abilities and save the dumps for after until runes reactivate.

I never said to not use diseases however, but it's possible to set up your runes in a way that you can apply diseases and then set up such a long GCD chaining number of strikes in that short period maximising your burst.

The idea is to use DRW with Hysteria as a burst phase and allow ERW/BT to give your rotation a huge amount of flexibility so that instead of going with the normal limitations caused by diseases and Death Runes you can push out a higher burst. Hence why during that portion magical damage is much lower than it will be the rest of the encounter for a Blood DK.

Again though as I said, it's not 100% physical damage, as close as it may be, but the burst capacity does not accurately reflect the rest of the DK's damage % ratios over the encounter.

Allev · 01/18/10, 3:50 PM

So rather than debate technicalities of "mechanic X should make Y true" about a class I didn't know, I went and looked at some Saurfang parses to find the best Blood DK parses I could. Yes, it's not quite an ideal DK fight-- no cleaves. But it is a single-target fight that you can count on getting full uninterrupted DPS time.

Blarggh does 22% spell damage during his first Hysteria.

Casul does 29% spell damage during his first Hysteria.

Sardukar does 20.8% spell damage during his first Hysteria.

After checking the top 3, I figure that there isn't really a point in going on-- it looks like 20% is in fact a fine estimate for DK magical damage during Hysteria.

Valimar · 01/18/10, 5:33 PM

Necrosis is questionable, as it's a direct % based on your melee swings which are physical. Double dip effect as it were, without Hysteria his Necrosis would be doing less damage. Should also note that Casul's spell damage is also so high because of the Bryntroll proc.

Though I must admit I'm suprised despite that the magical numbers are that high, I stand corrected.

Breklin · 01/19/10, 12:59 PM

Just jumping in here given this was linked in the Blood DK thread.

The 20% spell damage is including the damage done with diseases, which may use up two globals during a hysteria if using DRW. It's somewhat of a misrepresentation to conclude that the ~10% disease damage reduces the value of hysteria when they are essentially fire and forget, especially when running Glyph of Disease. Plague Strike is also physical damage and thus benefits from Hysteria.

If you account for death coil damage and optionally Necrosis (which is debatable given Valimar's argument), you're looking at roughly 10-12% spell damage over the duration of Hysteria.

Shamgarr · 01/19/10, 1:25 PM

It seems like people are focusing unduly on the percentage of spell damage done...

The one and only issue is how much total physical damage each class can put out during Hysteria. This includes the fact that with proper timing of the Hysteria, the druid is going to have Hysteria-buffed bleeds ticking past the Hysteria duration.

I think it's somewhat indisputable that a feral can put out higher damage with Hysteria than the blood DK. Whether this is the case, and by how much, is going to depend on relative gear, skill, and communication between the two players. On the average farm content, the DK might as well use it on himself since he knows when to use it optimally. On a challenging dps check, if the feral is comparably skilled and geared the raid should see a small boost from applying it to the feral - whether it's enough to warrant the change is up to the raid.

ithecho84 · 01/19/10, 4:55 PM

I think it's undeniable that between the two classes, ferals have the most burst potential as well as putting out slightly more sustained. Factor in the fact that we have encounters where quick switches and burst have and will continue to play an integral part in the fight, the most logical answer would be to coordinate Berserk with situations where burst is needed, and coordinate Hysteria to come a few seconds before said Berserk. Now I'm sure not many DK's out there, or any class for that matter, want to impede themselves to boost others, but if the best interest of the raid is at hand, that is the right thing to do. It does take a dedicated raider to realize this.

Allev · 01/19/10, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Shamgarr

It seems like people are focusing unduly on the percentage of spell damage done...

The one and only issue is how much total physical damage each class can put out during Hysteria. This includes the fact that with proper timing of the Hysteria, the druid is going to have Hysteria-buffed bleeds ticking past the Hysteria duration.

I think it's somewhat indisputable that a feral can put out higher damage with Hysteria than the blood DK. Whether this is the case, and by how much, is going to depend on relative gear, skill, and communication between the two players. On the average farm content, the DK might as well use it on himself since he knows when to use it optimally. On a challenging dps check, if the feral is comparably skilled and geared the raid should see a small boost from applying it to the feral - whether it's enough to warrant the change is up to the raid.

I don't think it's so much the focus, as it is a reminder that spell damage doesn't simply go away. It's not a straight 20% buff to DKs in the period, it's a 16% buff even for the best players. But you're entirely right that the focus should be on what actual physical damage is done rather than ratios.

And from the three elite blood DKs I linked in my last post, they're all doing higher peak DPS than the ferals pre-Hysteria. So I'm not convinced the numbers are so much in the ferals' favor as previously thought.

ithecho84 · 01/19/10, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Allev

I don't think it's so much the focus, as it is a reminder that spell damage doesn't simply go away. It's not a straight 20% buff to DKs in the period, it's a 16% buff even for the best players. But you're entirely right that the focus should be on what actual physical damage is done rather than ratios.

And from the three elite blood DKs I linked in my last post, they're all doing higher peak DPS than the ferals pre-Hysteria. So I'm not convinced the numbers are so much in the ferals' favor as previously thought.

Well to be fair their ferals are putting up pretty low numbers, and I've yet to see a WoL parse in the WWS thread from a feral that matches the gear level of those DK's. However, I was actually quite surprised at the numbers the DK's were putting up. One thing I'm curious about is whether or not the fact that DK's have to setup death runes in order to get a proper burst potential is relevant or not. But I suppose with Hysteria being on a 3 min cooldown, one doesn't have to be able to use Hysteria every time burst is required, which means they can choose to use it when it suits them. I guess that settles the debate of whom Hysteria is best for. Assuming equal gear level and skill, Hysteria would be just as good for one class as the other, probably better for DK's if it's their own Hysteria, since they can pick the best time without too much effort.

kalbear · 01/19/10, 7:21 PM

On an unrelated discussion: with the changes to PPM, some bears are indicating a very big change in how many OoC procs they've seen. Has anyone seen a remarkable reduction in OoC procs?

Rolfcaron · 01/19/10, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by ithecho84

I guess that settles the debate of whom Hysteria is best for. Assuming equal gear level and skill, Hysteria would be just as good for one class as the other, probably better for DK's if it's their own Hysteria, since they can pick the best time without too much effort.

I wouldn't say it 'settles' the debate. Merely moves it onto something each raid needs to establish for themselves. Parses and at the very worst simulators can be used to help determine, and that's only required if the choice isn't patently obvious. In most raids it's easy to look and see, if the DK is beating the Feral by over 10-15% each fight, the DK may as well keep using it. If the Feral is closer than that (or higher) than it is likely best used in the hands of the Feral. Often player skill (or lack thereof) trumps gear and even class considerations.

Allev · 01/20/10, 7:05 AM

The big thing to notice is that when a feral ends their Berserk, there isn't a lot of damage going out immediately after, because you have a need to regenerate your energy. While you condense a lot of attacks in the 15s of Berserk, you get nearly none in the 5-10s after. Perhaps better play by a feral (i.e. get Hysteria, wait 15s, Berserk) would be beneficial.

Hoofhearted · 01/20/10, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

On an unrelated discussion: with the changes to PPM, some bears are indicating a very big change in how many OoC procs they've seen. Has anyone seen a remarkable reduction in OoC procs?

On todays saurfang kill i had 4 clearcast procs compared to 12 before the change. 1 or 2 of those 4 were probably during the first 20 seconds as cat as well. Not that it makes a difference.

everything seems more interesting at 4am

• Vykromond · 01/22/10, 9:37 AM

Please let's not each start posting our one-fight Omen of Clarity anecdotes. If something has changed, test for a statistically significant result.

slynd · 01/22/10, 8:07 PM

Any thoughts on the new trinket from Putricide25: Tiny Abomination in a Jar? (i haven't seen any information from feral druids about this one) It seems pretty interesting while we lack hit rating from t10 gear.