does rawr really have Mongoose better than zerk?
zerk still better right?

Drop an expertise talent point, unless your hit sucks.

Thats not an option, there is no comparable dps talent that could be taken instead of primal precision.

I'm getting very low up time on Mongoose (both while tanking and while dpsing). I havent done precise testing but I am getting 10%-12% uptime of Mongoose in sample of 4-5 different nights.
You better test which one is better for yourself cause the proc rates were tweaked lately.

The problem with Mongoose is that at later levels of gear the high crit rate becomes detrimental, especially compared to berserk. The flip side of that is that once you get 4pT10, crit rate becomes much more valuable again.

They're very close to each other, in any event, and a lot of it will come down to personal preference and your ability to optimize your rotation at proc times.

Last night i had a chance to test Tiny Abomination in a Jar for a very limited time. I did some training dummy test with my rotation for like 5 minutes that i forgot to screenshot. After that we did Blood Princes, thats a pretty bad fight for this type of testing, but this is more than nothing. I hope these screenies can be somewhat useful. (you can check the fight also on worldoflogs if my guildie uploaded)

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I just got 4T10 to try out after raids last night and noticed that the 12% damage reduction is a separate buff called Enraged Defense that's applied when you use Enrage, but runs it's full 10 second duration even if you cancel Enrage. This has minimal implications for tanking since Enrage doesn't lower your armor anymore, but it does give dps ferals another damage reduction cooldown for those times where you won't be attacking and want to reduce stress on your healers.

Generally speaking I'm not in favour of trying to - or telling people to - time Berserk with trinket procs. The priority list is complicated enough as is, and dynamic fights put the opportunity cost of missing a Berserk fairly high, e.g. if you waited too long to pop Berserk and ended up just getting half or none of it due to having to move out of melee, or Rebirth/Innervate, or your raid wipes at 1% with the Berserk cooldown at 10 seconds.

However, the extraordinarily long internal cooldown on DBW means they had to make the proc extraordinarily powerful and long - plus the incidental fact that the proc is impossible to NOT notice - makes it tempting to try to occasionally (but not always, or even as a general rule) synchronize with a 3-min On-Use cooldown like Berserk. Assuming one is going to even begin to dig into this, the question becomes:

How long should I wait to pop a ready Berserk if I can reasonably assume that DBW (possibly plus another trinket) will be coming off ICD fairly soon - and at what point is the risk of losing a Berserk at the tail end of a fight too great to mess with this? Since I'm unable to mess with Rawr at the moment I'd like to just propose the following theoretical framework and either be told that this is too difficult and pointless or worth exploring by the community:

DBW proc + successful Berserk synchronization total damage increase over non-Berserked same time-interval damage = X

"Normal" Berserk total damage increase over non-Berserked same time-interval damage = Y

If [(Estimated risk of losing Y late in fight) * Y] > X then you should not attempt synchronization.

Bad news:

• dynamic fight mechanics play havoc with this
• my best estimate for the difference between X and Y are about 1000-2000dps for a 2T10-ish geared feral. I'd love to know if this is completely out of the ballpark wrong as it was arrived at by about 30min of experimenting using Team Robot WoW Simulator

Good news:

• InternalCooldowns - Addons - Curse is extraordinarily easy to use, just install, drag the interesting proc item onto an action bar and see the cooldown using something like Cooldowns - Addons - Curse Proculas is another more complicated/powerful option.

What I'm getting at is that no matter your thoughts about my methodology/theory above, there are certain simple situations where it's a no-brainer to hold off Berserk for a tiny little bit:
if you know there is next to no chance of losing a normal Berserk (due to the fight being over soon)
OR
if you know the internal cooldown on DBW - and even another trinket/enchant/on-use tinker like Mjolnir's - will be up very soon (say - ten seconds?)
AND
stable melee situation for the next (waittime + 15 seconds)

Even in a no-brainer situation, the question remains how much of a dps increase this is. The longer ICD, the longer proc duration and therefore more powerful proc impact of DBW should point to this being a non-trivial question.

I tried synchronising the last Berserk of the fight with DBW proc in simcraft and the results (6 dps increase) were too disappointing to bother. But maybe I overlooked something?

SimulationCraft - for fur and feather wearers

I don't see that SimulationCraft would be a conclusive way to analyze the outcomes of this issue as the answer is essentially a factor of fight length + RNG + fight mechanics which all affect each other in very unpredictable ways. Kudos for trying, though.

What would be very useful is putting a number on X and Y, which should be accomplishable via Rawr/SimulationCraft. I'm also not certain that I have the definition of X correct - i.e. whether it should be the total damage increase or just total damage. Or something else.

Otoh, given an average 25p-geared feral currently in ICC25 has an extraordinate amount of crit - you may safely depend on DBW proccing in the first 1-3 seconds of melee engagement. Which means the ICD will be up again at 1:46-1:48 and again at 3:33-3:36, unless there was significant time away from melee in the crucial ICD-off period at ~1:46. Which is enough to hint at a possible ruleset to determine if the 1st and 3rd DBW proc couldn't be reliably Berserk'd on various fights. I'm guessing most would just say it's an impossible-to-quantify player skill issue not worth worrying about except on the fly.

coldbear, I think you don't quite understand what I did. I simulated a 300 second fight 2 times with 1000 iterations each. 300 seconds means no matter what you do you will get a maximum of 2 Berserks in. In one profile I'd always have the 2nd berserk used as soon as I had enough energy. In the other profile then 2nd Berserk would only be used when deathbringer's will buff was up. I don't see a general problem with this kind of testing. What confuses me is that it doesnt seem to significatnly increase the dps over the course of the whole fight and thus I'm wondering if this is even worth bothering unless you are terribly bored with the encounter. Part of the reason is probably, that the speed buff is worthless for berserking. But this still seems fishy to me, although I'm not sure what kind of dps increase we should expect.