Feral DPS Discussion - Page 42

Promotion · 02/03/10, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by Valarauko

I'm a bit confused on this. It seems that almost every BiS scenario drops gloves from the set. Why, on the other hand, couldn't one go with [Sanctified Lasherweave Handgrips] and [Bladeborn Leggings]? You have haste and arp on the gloves, the only drawback is the missing expertise on the tier pants. Or is there something else I'm unaware of being considered in these BiS lists?

edit: Pre hard mode... current gearing considerations.

In my opinion, cause you REALLY do need the massive epxertise on the set legs, with sanctified you are pretty close to the epxertise cap already plus the talent(10expertise).

Hotii · 02/03/10, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Slott

Temelin: You may also want to look into getting precision on gloves (20 hit) versus 20 agility. This frees up a hit gem as well for something that may rate higher (haste possibly).

First time poster, long time reader, but I was following up on what Slott said and it got me thinking. By going to precision to gloves and gaining a haste gem over a hit gem. Then wouldn’t Engineering be better then BS?

My thinking is in that you drop 2 Haste gems for loss of BS, then switch a haste gem for a hit gem for losing precision again and go with the Hyper speed Glove Enchant. You in turn lose 60 haste, but you gain the glove enchant which itself is valued at 68 haste or an 8 haste rating increase over BS. It’s not a huge increase or anything, but better than nothing.

Gloves are a bit sketchy though, in a lot of fights when you may have to run out as soon as you use them. That is a downside to using them, but at the same time, gloves plus Berserk/Mongoose/DBW proc is rather nice. It’s a lot more risky then the static 60 Haste of BS.

Thoughts/Opinions?

Valarauko · 02/03/10, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by Promotion

In my opinion, cause you REALLY do need the massive epxertise on the set legs, with sanctified you are pretty close to the epxertise cap already plus the talent(10expertise).

However, isn't the dodge cap "Expertise Dodge-Cap vs lvl 83 targets and with Primal Precision: 16 Expertise = 131.16 Expertise Rating" per the updated OP of this thread? I'm not disagreeing that the tier legs are good, I'm wondering about the value of dropping anything from the 5 set period. Heroic mode gear may change things, but currently in terms of 264 gear it appears to me that 5 pc sanctified is difficult to beat for overall itemization.

Murna · 02/04/10, 4:37 AM

@Valarauko:

You will need the T10 legs because that's the only good source for expertise. The offset pieces you posted may not be bad, but I wonder where you'll want to get your expertise then?

Now the offset gloves are just plain better than the T10 gloves, that's why 5pc sanctified ISN'T difficult to beat. However, the difference is very small. Compare the 277gloves with 277 T10:

-8 Agi
-8 Haste
+ 1 Yellow Socket (imagine [Deft Ametrine])

@Hotii
This option may be viable for JC. Especially if you can sync the gloves haste enchant with a Agi or Str procc from DBW.
However for all of us who are not JC, it's a lot harder to reach the ArP cap. 2 more Sockets should be definite more worth than the bonus Hyperspeed Accelerators grant you over 60 Haste.
(Besides, I'm not a friend of changing a profession just for <100 DPS, that's why I'm still Inscription+LW)

I updated the two BiS lists in my guide.
I don't see a way to cap Expertise, Hit AND ArP. At least not for non-JC.
Personally, I'd exchange some of the orange gems for 4-5 more ArP gems to reach ArP Hardcap. Above 1300 ArP, ArP is so extremely strong and probably even better than hit/expertise.

Heliousthegreat · 02/04/10, 8:24 AM

I've checked the updated Rawr for trinkets.. and browsed through Cat dps guide.. anybody able to explain why [Death's Verdict] Is still BiS over [Herkuml War Token]

rahba · 02/04/10, 9:13 AM

I think [Band of the Bone Colossus] is a better choice for the BiS slot set than [Frostbrood Sapphire Ring]. At that point you're over the crit/arpen caps and the hit/haste on [Band of the Bone Colossus] becomes a better option.

Umah · 02/04/10, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Allev

I'm not sure if it's known whether Scourgebane will get multiplied by our +AP to weapon talent. It's hard to test, and even being an enchanter/theorycrafter I didn't realize that enchant existed.

Anyone has any idea how to test this? Adding Scourgebane to Rawr's EnchantCache with 140 AP static gives over 22 more DPS than Mongoose with BiS, and 26 more DPS in my current equip.

Heliousthegreat · 02/04/10, 11:27 AM

Another thing I've been wanting to check out as well Umah.. some feedback would be nice. ^^;

My Rawr shows [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Mongoose] > [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Scourgebane] > [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Berserking]

ramenchef · 02/04/10, 1:07 PM

You should be using Band of the Bone Colossus and Frostbrood Sapphire Ring if you have access to the 277 versions of both. The gemming should be hit, expertise, ArP, then leftover in haste. I don't understand why everyone keeps using the rep ring over the Bone Colossus. All current theorycrafting has shown that bone colossus yields more dps than Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance. This is due to the low procrate of the ring at 1PPM (1.6667% chance per hit for Cats, 60sec ICD) and the agi, haste, and a bit of hit Bone Colossus has, which outweighs the crit, some AP and the proc of the ring.

Profiler - Wowhead

Weapon slot is broken currently with that weapon. It should be gemmed with 1 ArP and 2 haste gems. 1365 ArP according to the profiler+122 on the weapon + 20 from the ArP gem in the weapon caps your ArP. This is without ArP food either, so gem/buff accordingly in regards to the ArP cap.

Daenerys · 02/04/10, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by ramenchef

You should be using Band of the Bone Colossus and Frostbrood Sapphire Ring if you have access to the 277 versions of both. The gemming should be hit, expertise, ArP, then leftover in haste. I don't understand why everyone keeps using the rep ring over the Bone Colossus. All current theorycrafting has shown that bone colossus yields more dps than Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance. This is due to the low procrate of the ring at 1PPM (1.6667% chance per hit for Cats, 60sec ICD) and the agi, haste, and a bit of hit Bone Colossus has, which outweighs the crit, some AP and the proc of the ring.

Profiler - Wowhead

Weapon slot is broken currently with that weapon. It should be gemmed with 1 ArP and 2 haste gems. 1365 ArP according to the profiler+122 on the weapon + 20 from the ArP gem in the weapon caps your ArP. This is without ArP food either, so gem/buff accordingly in regards to the ArP cap.

Is Rawr modeling the AV ring proc correctly? Because for me, and I assume most others, we include it in our BiS list because Rawr rates it higher than 277 Bone Colossus.

Bonemage · 02/04/10, 5:29 PM

I went through about a dozen fights that are static or nearly static for me (Deathbringer, Rotface, Festergut and Blood Queen) and came up with 11.6% up time, which translates into 56 AP from the Ashen Band proc. The comparison is then the Bone Colossus gives you +.18% crit, +.09% hit, and 65 Haste at a cost of 54 AP. Also the Bone Colossus would produce more consistent results, since random procs are random.

ramenchef · 02/04/10, 6:12 PM

Rawr is Modeling the proc incorrectly. It puts it at a 10% proc chance when it's been proven to be a 1PPM.

MizarAlcor · 02/09/10, 5:51 PM

Firstly, I would like to apologize for my non-familiarity with the inner workings of a cat druid.

As far as I know, Mangle/Trauma is one of the more detrimental DPS raid debuff for bleed-using classes, including MM hunters. During our raids as a hunter, I was usually concerned with a couple other important boss debuffs and not until recently that I started to notice that Mangle debuff isn't always up on the boss. We don't have a regular arms warrior, and only one regular cat druid in our raid. After conversing about the issue, he mentioned that at a certain gear level, keeping Mangle is actually a DPS loss for a cat rotation. I dug up about half of the posts on cat druid's forum thread but haven't managed to find a conclusive answer about this issue, only some stuff about using a "manglebot". Can anyone confirm/debunk this issue?

On a similar topic, I am actually a bit more familiar with Rogue's DPS rotation, and at current gear level, Rupture doesn't take a very important part in their DPS rotation anymore. As such, I'm wondering whether this can be a similar analogy to the cat druid's situation.

Rolfcaron · 02/09/10, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by MizarAlcor

After conversing about the issue, he mentioned that at a certain gear level, keeping Mangle is actually a DPS loss for a cat rotation. I dug up about half of the posts on cat druid's forum thread but haven't managed to find a conclusive answer about this issue, only some stuff about using a "manglebot". Can anyone confirm/debunk this issue?

If there are two druids in a raid, the one keeping up the mangle debuff will do less damage than the other (assuming all other things equal). So in technicality, using mangle as part of ones rotation is a dps loss. But the debuff contributes more damage for the feral druid than he loses by casting it, so even if he is the only one benefiting from it he will see a DPS increase by keeping the debuff up. Of course, this fails to mention other raiders who benefit from the mangle debuff, and the raid wide contribution far exceeds what little he is gaining by leaving it out of his rotation.

The TLDR version: The cat is wrong. He needs to use mangle or is own DPS will suffer unless someone else is keeping the debuff up.

EDIT: Adding in some quick (and very dirty) napkin math.

Not using Mangle: 200-400 DPS boost
Bleed% of damage of overall damage: 30%
Benefit of Mangle to bleed damage: 30%
Assumed Damage (assuming patchwerk style encounter): 10000 DPS
30% of 30% of 10000 = 900.
Using mangle is thus a 900 DPS boost and at most a 400 dps loss. Total gain is 500 DPS.

tagosa · 02/09/10, 6:11 PM

When the feral has to keep mangle up himself, it is a personal dps loss compared to having a manglebot/arms warrior present to do it for him. (Though only a couple hundred dps worth.)

But, not having mangle present 100% is not only a dps loss for him, but for the whole raid who can use the +30% increased bleed damage. So long story short, your feral is wrong for not keeping mangle up near 100% if he's the only one able to do so.