Feral DPS Discussion - Page 43

Inaiwae · 02/10/10, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfcaron

EDIT: Adding in some quick (and very dirty) napkin math.

Not using Mangle: 200-400 DPS boost
Bleed% of damage of overall damage: 30%
Benefit of Mangle to bleed damage: 30%
Assumed Damage (assuming patchwerk style encounter): 10000 DPS
30% of 30% of 10000 = 900.
Using mangle is thus a 900 DPS boost and at most a 400 dps loss. Total gain is 500 DPS.

Did you forget to include 30% additional damage from Shred?

Temelin · 02/10/10, 7:41 AM

Personal DPS loss for a druid, who have to use mangle, is not high now. Its difficult to say, how much percet he lose. It depends on OCC at the right time, which is total RNG factor. Also, it depends on his critrate. Its known, that in very high critrate (buffed 65%+) the mangle figure as weaker shred.

Personal DPS loss for feral is much higher, when he cant extend RiP to its full duration throught the shred glyph, because he had to mangle instead of shred. Im not sure, if RAWR calculate correctly those shorter RiPs. It leads to serious CBPs loss and number of FBs could be half from a real potential - which is another ~4% DPS lose and then much over 7% total DPS lose. As I mentioned before, high critchance give enough CBPs to manage SR uptime and enough place to extend every RiP, which eliminate CBP loss.

About mangle uptime, DPS feral is the worst provider. His top priority is to not attack without SR up. There are situations in rotation, that feral has 5 CBP, SR up and no reason to apply mangle over 5 CBP, because his CBP loss hits harder his DPS than 1/2 bleed ticks without mangle. If we talk about AoE fights like Anubarak or Lich King ph1, there also feral have no reason to apply mangle, if his SR is up. He will rather swipe 4/5 targets.

If your feral realy doesnt mangle and he is the only mangle provider in your raid, hes losing 30% of almost all yellow - when his AA takes 35% portion of DPS and FB 8% full buffed, hes losing almost 20% of his overal DPS - which is more, then he ll spam mangle instead of shred.

Rolfcaron · 02/10/10, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Inaiwae

Did you forget to include 30% additional damage from Shred?

I forgot to take a look at a lot. Frankly, I took the worst case (400 DPS lost is about double what I see most people declare it) scenario for having to mangle, and only the barest minimum of factors with the damage loss. Even in that rather extreme scenario the answer is simple. If there isn't a mangle debuff on the target, then a Feral Druid needs to put it there. Extra factors that weight the decision more heavily throw more weight to an argument that's already pretty unbalanced.

NaturesVoice · 02/11/10, 12:21 PM

Can someone explain to me what this guy did?

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

He did 15k dps at Festergut and he went into bear form once. Some new development I'm missing? I thought cat dps was complicated enough already but going into bear form as well? If I see this right he applies Rip, Rake and then goes to bear to apply Lacerate. He has Maul as third highest damaging ability. Shred caused the highest amount of damage.

2x T10 does give 20% more Lacerate and Swipe(Bear) damage but it that worth it to change to bear for?

oimcomin · 02/11/10, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by NaturesVoice

Can someone explain to me what this guy did?

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

He did 15k dps at Festergut and he went into bear form once. Some new development I'm missing? I thought cat dps was complicated enough already but going into bear form as well? If I see this right he applies Rip, Rake and then goes to bear to apply Lacerate. He has Maul as third highest damaging ability. Shred caused the highest amount of damage.

2x T10 does give 20% more Lacerate and Swipe(Bear) damage but it that worth it to change to bear for?

It's because Festergut applies a debuff called Gastric Bloat which increases damage done by 10% for every stack that is applied. So he probably went in bear to tank Festergut to gain stacks of the debuff to increase his damage and then went back to cat form for the rest of the fight with the debuff applied. It lasts 1.67min. From these logs it looks as though he gained 8 stacks of the debuff which would have increased his damage by 80%, but im not 100% familiar with wow meters online.

gobbles · 02/11/10, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by oimcomin

It's because Festergut applies a debuff called Gastric Bloat which increases damage done by 10% for every stack that is applied. So he probably went in bear to tank Festergut to gain stacks of the debuff to increase his damage and then went back to cat form for the rest of the fight with the debuff applied. It lasts 1.67min. From these logs it looks as though he gained 8 stacks of the debuff which would have increased his damage by 80%, but im not 100% familiar with wow meters online.

He probably tanked first, in cat spec and gear. When the the second tank taunted he was probably given Hand of Salvation so he could proceed to go cat with the damage buff. As he didnt have to tank after the third inhale the damage was probably heal-able.

I have done this in tank spec and gear before and can tell you the buff makes for very good dps.

This is a way to maximize dps if you are going for the achievement.

Blazefire · 02/12/10, 11:59 AM

I'm not sure maximizing dps for Festergut has anything to do with going for the achievement. The achievement is to have nobody in the raid take more then 2 spores, which is essentially just more severe raid damage when he belches.

Regarding the tactic above, its nice and all to see big/flashy numbers, but you essentially have a 3 tank rotation and the net gain from the 1 person doing mega dps doesn't really offset the loss of a dps to use a 3rd tank. For example, that extra tanks in this report did roughly 3.4k DPS, take it and add it to the druid's 15.1k DPS and your total net DPS is around ~18.5k DPS on the fight. Now instead tank with only two tanks, a druid and random tank and bring in an extra dps. The last fight I tanked, I did 8.5k as one of the two tanks, then take that extra DPS you have from not using a 3rd tanks and thats and an additional 8-11k DPS (depending on the class of the extra DPS). Add the two together and its really a wash. In the end they are both about the same, but using 2 tanks vs 3 tanks seems like it would be less of a strain on the healers and safer.

Carsti · 02/16/10, 12:01 AM

Since Rawr ranked the [Barbed Ymirheim Choker] much better then my currently equipped [Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]. So I went there an fetched one. So, I gain 3 AP and 48 Haste, while loosing 48 Hit and 13 Crit. This seems to translate into 0.01 Speed gain, while I lose around 1% Crit. Is that 0.01 Speed really that good?

Daenerys · 02/16/10, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by Carsti

Since Rawr ranked the [Barbed Ymirheim Choker] much better then my currently equipped [Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]. So I went there an fetched one. So, I gain 3 AP and 48 Haste, while loosing 48 Hit and 13 Crit. This seems to translate into 0.01 Speed gain, while I lose around 1% Crit. Is that 0.01 Speed really that good?

Because you are WAY over the hit cap, so the hit on the Onyxia Tooth is completely wasted. So in reality it's 3 AP and 48 Haste versus just 13 Crit; pretty clear which is better when you look at it that way. And that 48 Haste is worth about 2% faster attack speak, which is pretty significant.

FYI: You need 8% hit to be capped in a raid (7% if you've got a Draenei in the riad). You have over 15%.

Cluey · 02/16/10, 1:34 AM

Originally Posted by Carsti

Since Rawr ranked the [Barbed Ymirheim Choker] much better then my currently equipped [Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]. So I went there an fetched one. So, I gain 3 AP and 48 Haste, while loosing 48 Hit and 13 Crit. This seems to translate into 0.01 Speed gain, while I lose around 1% Crit. Is that 0.01 Speed really that good?

You need to reread the first post, actually read it, don't just skim it, don't just look at the BiS list, read it.
Murna spent a lot of time writing that post up and it is a pretty good summary.

As for your specific question lets make a table to make it simple.

Item	Agility	Hit	Crit	Haste	AP
[Barbed Ymirheim Choker]	67	0	39	48	99
[Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]	76	48	52	0	96

Now seeing as you have 509 hit rating which is well over the 262.32 we need to cap hit lets redo the table with what you are getting from each item.

Item	Agility	Hit	Crit	Haste	AP
[Barbed Ymirheim Choker]	67	0	39	48	99
[Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant]	76	0	52	0	96

So 67 agility, 39 crit and 48 haste is much better than 76 agility and 52 crit.

Defyn · 02/16/10, 3:35 AM

Slot	BiS Item	Enchant	Gems
Head	[Sanctified Lasherweave Headguard]	[Arcanum of Torment]	[Relentless Earthsiege Diamond][Fractured Dragon's Eye]
Neck	[Sindragosa's Cruel Claw]		[Fractured Cardinal Ruby]
Shoulders	[Sanctified Lasherweave Shoulderpads]	[Greater Inscription of the Axe]	[Fractured Cardinal Ruby]
Back	[Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak]	Greater Speed	[Quick King's Amber]
Chest	[Sanctified Lasherweave Raiment]	Powerful Stats	[Fractured Cardinal Ruby][Accurate Ametrine]
Wrist	[Toskk's Maximized Wristguards]	Greater Assault	[Rigid King's Amber][Glinting Ametrine]
Hands	[Aldriana's Gloves of Secrecy]	Precision	[Glinting Ametrine][Fractured Dragon's Eye][Rigid Dragon's Eye]
Waist	[Astrylian's Sutured Cinch]	Eternal Belt Buckle	[Deft Ametrine][Fractured Cardinal Ruby][Rigid King's Amber]
Legs	[Sanctified Lasherweave Legguards]	[Icescale Leg Armor]	[Fractured Cardinal Ruby][Glinting Ametrine]
Feet	[Frostbitten Fur Boots]	Icewalker	[Rigid King's Amber][Rigid King's Amber]
Ring 1	[Frostbrood Sapphire Ring]		[Accurate Ametrine]
Ring 2	[Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance]		[Fractured Cardinal Ruby]
Trinket 1	[Deathbringer's Will]
Trinket 2	[Herkuml War Token]
Weapon	[Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General]	Mongoose	[Fractured Cardinal Ruby][Nightmare Tear][Deft Ametrine]
Relic	[Idol of the Crying Moon] or [Idol of Mutilation]
Consumables	[Hearty Rhino][Flask of Endless Rage][Potion of Speed]

255 Hit // 126 Exp // 1395 ArP // 513 Haste // 928 Crit

Could swap a Deft Ametrine out for an Accurate to be Hit/Exp capped if you hate messing up your rotation.

Oathbinder has ArP on it while Distant Land doesn't. The BiS cloak should really change to [Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak]. The above is what my BiS looks like as a BS/JC. I have access to pretty much any piece of loot in the game now, so I'm really careful about what upgrades I actually take since a lot of pieces aren't even worth it for me (ToGC 50 attempt cloak being one of them).

Obviously depending on what your professions are your BiS list will look different. BS and JC give you a lot of freedom when it comes to gemming. Engineering is most likely still better than BS for us, but yeah.

Mihir · 02/16/10, 8:58 AM

Even with the common LW instead of BS, the [Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak] beats out [Sylvanas' Cunning], seeing as you can still pretty easily cap arpen, hit and expertise without it (providing you get a LK polearm). Also, [Band of the Bone Colossus] beats out the [Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance] if you change the rep proc to 1PPM in Rawr.

Umah · 02/16/10, 11:26 AM

My BiS Lists (generated with Rawr, checked with Simulationcraft) show the 272 cloak as BiS... until Oathbinder 277 was introduced. With Oathbinder 277, Shadowvault becomes BiS.

Carsti · 02/16/10, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Cluey

You need to reread the first post, actually read it, don't just skim it, don't just look at the BiS list, read it.

Trust me, I did. Twice and triple over, but that does not necessarily mean I really get it.

I already had to admit that I misinterpreted the hit-cap, so I re-gemmed the whole character. Now all Hit "falls out of the box" with just the items I have. And nope, we don't have a Draenei in our raid. Anyway, tonight it's ICC again, so I will see if the changes gave me the calculated improvement. Additionally, after reading some of the other posts, I slightly changed the rotation/priority, too. Did too much Mangle, I guess.

scorch109 · 02/16/10, 12:54 PM

You should probably farm banner of victory/needle encrusted scorpion and in the mean time just grab mirror of truth over your mark of supremacy, even wtih the hit being used it's a subpar trinket.