Elitist Jerks Feral DPS Discussion

 03/09/10, 2:32 PM #721 Heliousthegreat Glass Joe   Hælious Night Elf Druid   Eonar Seeing as I'm not crit capped(yet). Maybe thats why I've never thought of putting haste in sockets, more so concentrating on geting back to 1300 region of ArP again. Thank you for your assistance.
 03/10/10, 11:36 AM #722 Umah Von Kaiser   Umah Tauren Druid   Rajaxx (EU) Does Shattering Throw - Spell - World of Warcraft has any effect if you are at 1400 ArP + FFF + Sunder? Does it have an effect if Sunder is not (fully) up yet, being ArPen capped?
03/10/10, 2:39 PM   #723
ithecho84
10bux

Tauren Druid

Maelstrom
 Originally Posted by Umah Does Shattering Throw - Spell - World of Warcraft has any effect if you are at 1400 ArP + FFF + Sunder? Does it have an effect if Sunder is not (fully) up yet, being ArPen capped?
The ArPCap is (armor + C)/3 where C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59).
A level 83 boss has 10643 armor and C for level 83 is 16635. With FF and Sunder, the armor value is 7982.25.
(7982.25 + 16635)/3 = 8205.75
The game chooses the lesser of either 7982.25 or 8205.75, 7982.25 minus itself and we can see that the boss' armor is effectively at 0.

So Shattering Throw doesn't actually do anything if you are at 100% ArP and the boss has FF and 5 stacks of sunder or even 4.
It will give you a benefit at only 3 stacks of sunder and a FF, and more with each missing application of it.
Basically, Shattering Throw doesn't have any benefit after the mob has 21% or more of its armor taken off through multiplicative debuffs. This is all assuming 100% ArP through your additive stats.

Edit-Woops apparently the armor information was wrong and bosses actually h.ave 10643 so shattering throw doesn't provide any benefit after all.

Last edited by ithecho84 : 03/10/10 at 5:00 PM.

 03/10/10, 6:57 PM #724 ramenchef Piston Honda   ramenchef Tauren Druid   Dragonmaw You have your numbers wrong, it isn't target level, but your level you use in determining C. Also, FF and sunder are multiplicative, not additive. Finally, shattering throw is applied in the same place of the formula as FF and sunder, so yes, it does affect your damage, even at 1401 ArP + FF + sunder.
 03/10/10, 7:57 PM #725 kalbear Bald Bull   Fellhoof Tauren Druid   Balnazzar It doesn't matter technically; the C value formula he posted was incorrect but the actual value needed was correct (16635 is the correct value for C for lvl 83 mobs vs lvl 80 players). While the end value armor is incorrect (it should be 8088), it's still less than the reduction maximum from armor pen (8241), which means that the full armor can be removed from a boss at level 80. Because of the way the formula works, any number of armor less than that value will also be reduced fully via armor pen - which means in practice that as long as you have 100% armor pen from gear and sunder/FF is up, shattering throw will do nothing for you. I wrote up more of this over here: ThinkTank: [Druid] The threat value of arpen If I'm incorrect about the calculation or the presumptions there, I'd appreciate the commentary.
 03/10/10, 8:14 PM #726 ramenchef Piston Honda   ramenchef Tauren Druid   Dragonmaw ArP Cap=(armor + C)/3 C=400+85*level+4.5*85*(level-59). C=400+85*80+4.5*85*(80-59) C=15232.5 Base armor is 10643. 10643*0.95(FF)*0.8(Sunder)=8088.68 ArP Cap = (8088.68+15232.5)/3 = 7773.727 Boss armor after ArP Capped = 8088.68 - 7773.727 = 314.953 The formula for the half armor value, C, is correct, but he and GC in that old post used the wrong value for the level. It is not target level but the attacker's level. Last edited by ramenchef : 03/10/10 at 8:20 PM.
03/10/10, 8:24 PM   #727
kalbear
Bald Bull

Tauren Druid

Balnazzar
C is not 15232.5, apparently - not for a level 83 target. From the wiki link (which came from GC's explanation):
 For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635
Now, I guess you could make the argument that bosses use armor pen and that that is the value that is used when a boss is armor pen vs. you, but I don't think that's correct. Everything in that lengthy dialog refers to the target's level, not the source.

Now, they got the ff/sunder info incorrect, but C should be correct (and was provided by GC). Here's an exerpt:
 A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=8320.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected).
Note that the player's level isn't mentioned here at all - only the level of the creature (target).

03/10/10, 8:27 PM   #728
ramenchef
Piston Honda

Tauren Druid

Dragonmaw
He made a mistake when he posted that as he himself did not fully understand the formula. Follow up posts point it out as does the Combat Ratings thread on this forum.

 Originally Posted by Aldriana So, upon preliminary testing, this makes sense - (10643+15232.5)/3 is .8104 times 10643, which is where our factor of .81 in the above formulas comes from. The rest of the formula wierdness seems to come from the fact that Sunder/Expose/Faerie Fire/etc. seem to also lower the cap, as well as reducing the armor value. So, for instance, if I drop a 5-point Expose Armor on the boss-level target dummy (which has 10643 armor, base), it's armor is reduced to .8 * 10643 = 8514.4 armor, and the cap is reduced to (8514.4+15232.5)/3 = 7915.633333 armor. So, when I attack it with 171 armor penetration rating on (=13.8841% reduction), the armor value is reduced by 7915.633333* .138841 = 1099.015 armor to 7415.385; thus, a gouge with 3521 AP (base damage: 814.451) should do 740.41 * 15232.5 / (15232.5+7415.385) = 547.783 damage, which matches the observed value of 547-548 nicely. Or at least, it almost does. The problem is that a crit with Lethality, Prey on the Weak, and Relentless Earthsiege Diamond would be expected to do (2 * 1.03 * 1.2 - 1) * 1.3 + 1 = 2.9136 times as much, which would work out to 1596.02 damage, but the observed value is 1595-1596. So there's apparently some internal rounding in one or more steps such that this formula isn't exactly right (or the boss armor value is actually 10643.5, or some such). Regardless: as a first cut at the formula, modulo minor rounding issues, seems to be something like $\frac{A}{A+B(1-y)-x\frac{(1-y)B+A}{3}}$ for a typical boss mob. Note that the ((1-y)B+A)/3 term is really the minimum of that and B(1-y), but for a typical boss mob it will usually be the term as written.
A = the half armor value at 80, 15232.5
B = base boss armor, 10643
x = sum of arpen buffs(mace spec/battle stance/gear arpen)
y = product of arpen debuffs(sunder/ff) (1-.95*.8)

 03/10/10, 8:46 PM #729 kalbear Bald Bull   Fellhoof Tauren Druid   Balnazzar Thanks for the clarification and the correction; after looking at the other posts I have to agree. While it hasn't been tested in some time it's doubtful that aspect of it has changed significantly if at all. In that case, 6470.944 is the armor value after reduction via shattering throw, 7234 would be the cap, and thus you'd be able to get 100% reduction of armor at that point with shattering throw. 314 armor provides 2.02% damage reduction, so shattering throw should increase all nonbleed damage by 2% during its duration. Which is something, though not hugely significant.
 03/11/10, 4:20 AM #730 corrupt_raige Banned   Raije Night Elf Druid   Thunderlord messin with talents Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft So i messed with talents a little. I reworked my original copy pasted feral dps spec that EVERYONE has. First thing i did, took the two points out of Nurturing Instinct and put them into Feral Aggression. Why i had Nurturing Instinct in the first place is a mystery to me. I also took the 2 points out of Imp Leader of the Pack and moved them to Feral Aggression. My reasoning behind both these moves is basically, the healing boost is nice, when you're soloing or in pvp. but to maximize dps it can be sacrificed for that increase. Also, this maximizes both single target and AoE DPS. Although FB isn't used much in your rotation, you do get to sneak a few in there from time to time, like when you Berserk. And a 23k crit as apposed to 18k is very satisfying. =] All other mandatory DPS talents are there. If you want 3% more damage with FB you can take the point out of Feral Instinct and put it into Feral Aggression, but Swipe is used much more frequently than FB so i don't think it would be wise. But yeah, pretty much just got rid of two talents that are pretty much useless DPS wise and put them into the only dps talent. How come no one else has done this? Another thing, why do you have Survival Instinct in your specs?
03/11/10, 6:38 AM   #731
Vaccine
Mr. Sandman

Night Elf Druid

Argent Dawn (EU)
 Originally Posted by corrupt_raige Another thing, why do you have Survival Instinct in your specs?
Clutch tanking and survivability. For 1 point its far more valuable than another point in FA or FI depending on your tastes.

For your other stuff, Imp LotP is a bit situational but on fights where it's useful, its huge (Anub, Sindra and Putri HM's etc...). A lot of people don't take I.LotP though so you're not quite the trailblazer you seem to think you are.

The FA vs FI argument has raged a lot in here during the days of 3.1 and Ulduar. It really comes down to personal taste. FB is a small enough contribution in the first place, so a boost on that is really a last resort for DPS points. Then again FI is more situational in it's use and I can't really comment on it as I got bumped to MT for ICC so haven't DPS's outside of Rotface. I can't really see much use for FI in T10 to be honest, at least in hard modes. Maybe Dreamwalker you'd get some use on Suppressors, but other adds you'll be following your priority, and on Deathwhisper you'll always want to follow your priority over AoE to minimise risk. Perhaps LK P1 but other classes can do it easier and youll really only be doing it to pump your own DPS on the meters rather than to aid the fight, as ghouls tend to die to incidental AoE + disease anyway.

It's all rather moot though as in 3.3.3 Mangle will be on a 60 Sec CD meaning you'll reclaim 3 points from Imp. Mangle in cat spec even for the mangle bot, giving you the choice to go Imp LotP, and either max both FI+FA or drop 1 in SI and go 7/8 in FI/FA again depending on your tastes, or even max all those an 1/2 ILotP.

Last edited by Vaccine : 03/11/10 at 6:44 AM.

03/11/10, 9:27 AM   #732
Bonemage
Von Kaiser

Tauren Druid

Balnazzar
 Originally Posted by Vaccine I can't really see much use for FI in T10 to be honest, at least in hard modes. Maybe Dreamwalker you'd get some use on Suppressors, but other adds you'll be following your priority, and on Deathwhisper you'll always want to follow your priority over AoE to minimise risk. Perhaps LK P1 but other classes can do it easier and youll really only be doing it to pump your own DPS on the meters rather than to aid the fight, as ghouls tend to die to incidental AoE + disease anyway.
I can't speak to LK hardmode but for normal SI is very useful in Phase 2 on the Valk's. Given swipes wide and long cone of effect, if your raid has them heading in the same general direction it will hit all three most of the time. Also given the facing and range issues they have for other attacks swipe is king on them, it accounts for 75% or more of my Valk damage on most pulls.

 03/11/10, 10:39 AM #733 Ristaccia Glass Joe   Ristaccia Night Elf Druid   Alterac Mountains FI definitely is (and always has been) situational, and for some it might be feasible having two specs; one with the points in FI, and another swapping them to FA. That being said, in my experience, every instance since Ulduar has had at the least some fights where the DPS increase from FI will heavily outweight the extra points in FA, and ICC has been no exception. As some examples: Marrowgar: Swiping multiple bone spikes in melee Deathwhisper HM (Depending on strat): Swiping P1/P2 adds while white swinging Adherents in between their shields Gunship: Self-explanatory Dreamwalker: Suppressors as well as multiple 'large' adds up at the same time. Sindragosa: Ice blocks (potentially) LK: Cleaning up any leftover P1 Drudge Ghouls, P2 Valks, Raging Spirits during the P3 transition Not all of these are 'make-it-or-break-it' situations, but they are definitely helpful additions and can definitely contribute to the success of the encounters.
 03/11/10, 3:50 PM #734 Fugee Glass Joe   Swipe Human Druid   Korgath I don't get how the list on the front page is bis when it goes over arp cap with gems and food, this is the list i got using rawr 2.3.11. Let me know if you see anything wrong with it. [Sanctified Lasherweave Headguard] [Sindragosa's Cruel Claw] [Sanctified Lasherweave Shoulderpads] [Vereesa's Dexterity] [Sanctified Lasherweave Raiment] [Toskk's Maximized Wristguards] [Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General] [Idol of the Crying Moon] [Aldriana's Gloves of Secrecy] [Astrylian's Sutured Cinch] [Sanctified Lasherweave Legguards] [Frostbitten Fur Boots] [Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance] [Band of the Bone Colossus] [Deathbringer's Will] [Herkuml War Token] Berserk on weapon, 20 agi on gloves, 16 agi on boots. Using agi food and these gems. 8x [Fractured Cardinal Ruby], 3x [Fractured Dragon's Eye], 3x [Rigid King's Amber], 2x [Accurate Ametrine], 2x [Glinting Ametrine], 2x [Deft Ametrine] My druids a jc/enchanter so just fill in the proper enchants/gems with whatever your professions are.
 03/11/10, 4:51 PM #735 ramenchef Piston Honda   ramenchef Tauren Druid   Dragonmaw Go back through the last couple pages of this thread. You will find that you'll get more dps switching out the ashen band for frostbrood as rawr incorrectly models the ashen band proc. 2 rigid dragon's eyes and 1 fractured dragon's eye will also net a dps increase after you do the recommended ring change.

 Elitist Jerks Feral DPS Discussion