As far as I know of, the internal CD on weapon procs do not benefit from haste. Same on any procs (cloak enchants, glove enchants, trinkets, etc.)

I'm sure it's been said before, but to reiterate: Haste does not affect the global cooldown of physical attacks/abilities. Only spells GCD's are affected by haste, so GCD reduction is generally irrelevant to feral dps.

Both mongoose and berserk appear to be independently valued proc rates that are only determined by your base weapon speed. In which case, both do benefit from haste, albeit in a very marginal way.

What about weapons with no internal cooldown like Berserking? Or does it have one? How does haste affect the proc chance of 'chance on hit' effects? My understanding was that they had a chance calculated based on a PPM chance for the effect which is normalized for attack speed of your weapon, which would be 1.0 (unmodified by haste) for cats. I'm unclear as to whether haste affects the chance on hit of a weapon proc, weapon enchant proc, OoC, etc. I've heard yes and no from various sources.

@grezgorz:
there is not a general consensus on it. They are based on PPM but pre-Wotlk was found that the number of PPM doesn't change with haste. With wotlk they changed OOC to vary with haste (basically it has a fixed chance to proc so more attack = more proc) and it's not yet find out if they also changed weapon enchant in the same way. The difference will be small indeed.

The odd behaviour that you refer to isn't odd at all when you understand what it is telling you and how it works things out. It has been explained quite a few times in various threads, from memory Allev has described quite clearly why various stats shoot up in relation to others with what appear to be minor changes.
You are choosing to ignore the huge red text on the Relative Stat Values tab you are looking at in Rawr, the warning is there to try and prevent exactly what you are doing.

So given that you don't understand what it is telling you, you shouldn't offer advice to others. Let them research, read and learn instead of spoon feeding them answers to already answered questions, especially when you don't understand why the tools give the answers they give.
Having said that I thought your initial post in this thread was quite useful and good, you can't help how people choose to interpret what you summarised.

Cluey I do, in fact, understand what the red text is telling me.
Of course the relative Stat Values tab changes whenever adjustments to gear are being made. That's why it's called "relative".
I find it quite offending that you accuse me of not understanding the text.

What I do not understand is HOW these changes emerge. I haven't seen the algorithm for RAWR until now. If you've got it please share it with us.
If you can explain me, why sometimes Haste tops the chart with Agi being behind Str, ArP AND Crit and after gaining 2 more Crit Rating, the table completely changes to Agi>Str>ArP>Hit/Exp>Haste (besides - with 500 passive ArP!) then I would be very grateful.

I'm always saying that the value of every piece of gear and every stat highly depends on all of your other items, on your buffs, on your support and on your playstyle as well. That's exactly what the Red Text is telling us aswell.

That being said, it just would be wonderful to learn more about the calculations RAWR is making. How is the Value of the Stats - the relative Stat Value tab - generated? THIS, and not general changes of stat values, is sometimes unclear for me and this is what I am calling "odd behaviour".

Murna:

As far as my understanding of RSV, it is basically a measure of how much extra dps would you gain if you added a single point of agi/crit rating/haste rating etc. Like Rawr/Astrlyian states, this is a terrible method of comparing potential upgrades, it's pretty obvious that it can and is inaccurate for alot of reasons.

DPS upgrades don't come in allotments of 1 item value, because of how armorpen scales adding 1 arp might be worse then 1 agi but 30 arp could very possibly be better then 30 agi.
Rawr is built as a model, you specify the fight - the length the buffs, adding 1 haste at a certain point might give you 2 extra attacks but 1 haste at another point might give you only 1 extra attack in the specific model that you have set. (Breakpoints/rounding breakpoints exist for other stats, caps/soft caps exist for parry/hit/arp).

In the end I'm quite sure Astrlyian has put a reasonable amount of effort in trying to smooth out these problems (the smoothing itself depending on how its done may mislead results even more) and in the end it's just not a feasible way of evaluating how valuable a stat is in "general" - hence the GIANT RED WARNING.

I KNOW that RSV is not there for comparing stats in general. I don't know how often I have to point this out.
Everything you said is completely right, Xantcha, and I am fully aware of these facts.
All I'm asking for is clarification for how these calculations are made.

There have to be some breakpoints, thresholds or whatever where suddenly one stat grants more or less DPS as usual (Xantcha already stated the haste example). But as long as I do not know why and how these differences are calculated, I call them "odd behaviour" (which is perhaps some unlucky description, I have to admit this)

Don't get me wrong - I love the work both of them, Nightcrowler and Astrylian, have made. But at the moment the two incredible good models sometimes provide different results. While FBN is completely comprehensible because he gave us the code and we are discussing it, we actually have no idea how RAWR really works (again: please correct me, if I am wrong here and the code is publicised anywhere)

You can download the source code for rawr (including all the models) straight from the rawr website so I would hardly say how the rawr.cat model works is a secret. Anyone with a basic understanding of programming can download and take a look at the model themselves. Rawr is a collabarotive project so It wouldn't be unusual at all for there to be several people working on maintaining/updating/improving the rawr.cat model.

From my memory the first rawr.cat model was initially modelled off Toskk's Cat dps model, but was modified to suit rawr and it's functions. I'm not sure if it's been totally rebuilt from scratch or just constantly built on since the first version but I would probably take a look there if you wanted a brief understanding on how the rawr model calculates dps.

The code is publicized. You can view the coding on RAWR's Website. The only issue is that it's coded in C# instead of C++ that FBN is. It's similar in syntax, but the way it's presented is different.

Click here to check out the latest updates to RAWR. Just click the change set number to view the coding from the internet, or once in the change set, you can download the set to tinker or compile your own version of that change set: Rawr - Source Code

As for how it's read, most of the class info is placed in their respected folder. Procs are generally calculated from the RAWR.BASE module.

@ Aolbrandr

I'm by no means a "pro" cat DPS, but this is what I do for phase one of Yogg specifically. I get 5cp's on the first mob and SR. then the others i generally put about a 3cp rip on depending on what time i have. I chuck FFF up if i'm running in too. Phase one in my experience you wont beat the others for it. P2 you'll shine. And P3 if your on the brain you'll do quite well too. If your on adds in P3, I just FFF asap and mangle/shred them down. Theres not really time for anything else and FB will blow all your energy.

Damage isn't a huge deal in Phase 1 of Yogg. If you've made it to Yogg, you have the damage to get through P1 easily. Actually, the more common problem I see is OVER-damage of the targets, blowing them up before the tanks have them positioned correctly to harm Sara. I usually put up mangle and rake, then shred, bite or roar depending on my CPs and buffs, and get out. You don't have to work too hard at P1, and in my experience, overzealous casters will make up for any damage you don't put on the adds.

On P1 of Yogg, I actually avoid putting up big rips - they end up causing problems for kiting the adds back. I usually just either do a 5pt SR or a big FB, and just do a bit of damage. There shouldn't be any real problem with doing DPS on these; P1 is a coordination and tank check more than anything else.

Trust me, your DPS will skyrocket when you get to P2. That's where a feral really shines.

My guild runs melee heavy (I guess?) and aside from ret pallies and enh shaman (both likely to die from volley+explosion) we are attacking the guardians from 100-0 (run out if you get sara's favor though) With the exception of 1 light, we often have such excess time between adds that I'm usually starting with near full energy every time (especially considering letting the tank actually get aggro and move the mob next to sara).

I strongly recommend people use a feral druid or rogue to sprint in at the start and intentionally hit a cloud to spawn a 2nd Guardian. At least with Rogues and Feral Druids we can burn our 3m cooldowns at the start and have them up again for the brain. This gets you through P1 a lot faster and cleaner than not doing it, because adds spawn faster as you go longer, and the p1-p2 transition can often leave you with 2 adds up if you take too long; an extra at the start beats the hell out of an extra at the end. I would never Rip on P1 Guardians, Druids require mobs to allow sustaining Mangle, Rake, Rip, and SR in order to do optimal DPS, so on single adds (ie. no swipe) that die within 20 seconds our options get limited to Mangle-SR-Rake-Shred-FB if you have 4-5cp and the mob is about to die.

Getting behind the Guardians shouldn't be that big of an issue, the tank should always be moving in the same direction and move very little at that (unless you dps them away from sara, and then have the tank drag them in, which is a strat you should only use if melee can't avoid the giant green gas, in which case, you're pretty much hosed in terms of p1 dps) I really can't give you a "Do this rotation and it will always work" because I'd be a liar. You have mobs with low health, a random target damage buff, and random movement preventing some ranged from doing DPS sometimes; combined the mob is going to live anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds (made up numbers) And of course different guilds will be faster than others. If you are fighting guardians back to back (you kill one after the previous one spawns) and are able to attack something 90% of the time, I suggest the standard Mangle-SR-Rake-Shred-TF-Berserk opening and treat the cycle basically the same as on a Boss except FB instead of Rip. If you have a lot of downtime, it's going to depend on 4t8 or not, with the 4t8 you'll want a high CP SR that will last you through 2 mobs, in effect SR-FB-FB- as finishers. With high downtime and not 4t8, either open or finish mobs with 1cp SR's so they last just long enough for you to FB and get 1cp again.

As listed, when using Grim Toll, the ArP soft cap is 619.6. I currently have 509 Arp without proc, 1121 with proc, or 91.01% armor ignored.

My question is, does this soft cap take into account the armor reduction from both faerie fire (5%) and 5xSunders (20%) ?

As my guild member explained it, I have too much Arp and am effectively wasting 16.01% Arp when my Grim Toll is procced. Is his

logic correct? Should I switch some gems to agility?

Too slow, please delete.

The best reference if you're willing to read and think is to start page 17, post 420 here, and read all posts through the end of the thread. Be aware that one hotfix has adjusted arpen since page 17, but you won't understand later posts if you don't start there.

If reading and thinking aren't your favorite things, the short answer is: armor debuffs don't work on the same scale as arpen, so no you don't have to figure them in to your arpen from gear. A boss with no debuffs mitigates roughly 20% of your melee damage when your paperdoll penetration is 100%. A boss with sunder, FF, and shattering throw all up at once mitigates none of your melee damage when your paperdoll penetration is 100%.

Most scenarios fall onto the basic of DPE based on time. From rawr my DPE is as follows: mangle - 5620, shred - 8310, rake - 8640, rip 44380, FB 14910 (talented). mangle - 34 energy, shred 42 energy, rake 35 energy, FB ~42 energy avg, rip 30 energy. mangle - 165.3, shred - 197.9, rake - 246.9, rip - 1479.3, FB - 355.

FFF and mangle are a must-have regardless of the duration as is a bleed anyone can put up.

Shred does ~80% rake's DPE. Based on 9 second rake must be up for 8 seconds for damage to exceed shredding (ignoring faster CP generation). Shred does ~14% rips DPE. Based on 26 second rip 4 seconds of 5CP rips damage exceeds shredding. FB does ~24% rips DPE. 4 ticks, 8 seconds of rip is needed for rip to surpass FB.

I have almost all fights youtubed on my link below. I am not a perfect player but it should give a general idea of what to attack when. Bleeds receive increased benefit from 2T8 (add ~4% shred dpe to bleeds?).

edit - wow i'm slow.

Sal, when Rawr says DPE, it actually means Damage Per Execute and not damage per energy.

I divided the damage per execute by the energy required to execute.

Looking at what's on the PTR, is there anything that leads anyone to believe that we'll change from favoring ArPen over Agi (to cap)? I'm thinking that it'll just be easier to reach the cap with more ArPen on gear, leaving us to be able to gem for Agi more.