Feral DPS Discussion - Page 59

Gallowglass · 06/11/10, 5:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kzya

Can someone confirm this, because it seems a little absurd thinking of how many times you apply your bleeds in a situation while not having SR up.

I can't see any reason why you would do this, and you should never be applying rip or rake without SR up. If you need to clip SR, or SR with fewer CPs, then thats what you do, but you don't apply bleeds without SR. In all reality, you shouldn't even be shredding without an SR up.

Loot · 06/11/10, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kzya

Can someone confirm this, because it seems a little absurd thinking of how many times you apply your bleeds in a situation while not having SR up.

Exactly 0. A few seconds before SR starts going down go stack combo points and reapply it without allowing it to drop even for 0.1 seconds. If you have enough cps, pool energy until you can refresh it. If you have both cps and energy, drop some shred to not get energy capped and still make sure SR never drops.

FuzzyBuddy · 06/11/10, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Maldirge

New question for analyzing performance:

Our guild runs WoL every raid. I run my personal damage meters. Is there a way to get WoL to show FBs on the graphic display? I only see them on the table data. If not, is there another tool someone could suggest? I asked this question to my guild and on the WoL forums but have not gotten any useful replies.

I have been making an effort to use a few (not many) FBs than I used to. I occasionally let a DOT drop off and I would like to see if there is a correlation between bites and losing the DOTs during my post-raid analysis. As it is, I don't know if the DOTs are dropping due to target changing/movement or due to CP starvation from FBs.

Related: anyone have the reference for the break even FB/Rip point for high ARP gearing (1350ish)? The Rawr numbers are expressed in DPE. Is there a way to look at it as damage per combo point? I thought the "Rip is ALWAYS better than FB" rule is less true in T10 than it was back in Naxx/Uld.

Thanks from a first time poster.

You want to use the Analyze feature

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Set the Filter to '3 points soften'
Uncheck everything except Rip and FB

You should end up with something like this

Husyor · 06/11/10, 6:02 PM

SR is top priority, 33%(with glyph) isn't negligible.

Odas · 06/17/10, 7:49 PM

I tried out Black Magic over the course of two weeks: Week 1 Week 2

Looking at Saurfang, Rotface, and Festergut, the uptime of Black Magic varies between 18.0% and 24.4% with an average of 20.35%. I used my stat weights on Rawr and It ended up needing about 38% uptime on mongoose for it to be equivalent (I used 120 agi and 30 haste rating for the mongoose proc). Unfortunately, simcraft has been crashing on me so I wasn't able to do any calculations with simcraft. I think Rawr still assumes that 5% of white attacks must be hits and therefore values crit and agility less than simcraft (I was using 2.3.18).

Looking at movement fights, Black Magic tends to have a much higher uptime proportionally than mongoose (not surprising due to an ICD instead of PPM mechanic). Does anyone else have any parses or info about Black Magic?

Tiffara · 06/18/10, 11:06 AM

Here are my guild runs (I'm Jarand).

From 6/7/10 on, I was using Black Magic (prior to that Mongoose). Some of the fights I tank (with a different weapon), and some days I missed, but there are Deathbringer and Festergut kills in there where I dps. My experience of uptime is comparable to yours.

While Black Magic isn't as strong an effect as heroism, it does have an effect on OOC procs, and I think it might be useful to view periods when it's proc'ing (or even when it's about to proc, if you're good at tracking that) as good times to try to get in a ferocious bite, as you're less likely to lose rip time (depending, of course, on the rest of your state).

Odas · 06/18/10, 6:59 PM

Now that I think about it, since Rawr is using 2% haste on mongoose instead of 30 haste rating the assumption that mongoose passes berserking at higher gear levels wouldn't be true. This means that we should be comparing black magic with berserking instead of mongoose? Does anyone know what an expected uptime on berserking would be for either stationary fights (Saurfang) or mobile fights (Putricide/LK)? At a first glance it looks like berserking would still beat black magic.

Edit: I got my simcraft working again, and I think simcraft is also has mongoose as 2%. I think berserking is still better than mongoose. The only question is whether black magic suffers less from movement fights than ppm enchants.

Ledneh · 06/19/10, 1:41 PM

reference armory

A question about arpen vs hit rating vs expertise. I'm currently gemmed to just below the arpen cap, with hit filling out the rest of my gem slots. However, this leaves me at 22 expertise and like 105 (!) hit. I know hit/exp becomes more important at high gear levels like mine, but I don't know HOW valuable. Rawr, askmrrobot, and simcraft are giving conflicting and ambiguous results, unfortunately, so I don't know if regemming for more hit/exp or staying at the arpen cap is a better idea.

Any thoughts?

(edit) I DID just realize I can replace two arpen gems and use Hearty Rhino, but should I go further than that?

(edit again) Made the two gem replacement. My main concern right now is that with raid buffs I believe I am full-on crit-capped at my current hit level (expertise is pretty much capped now).

Noxn · 06/19/10, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ledneh

askmrrobot

I just checked out this site and was wondering how accurate Askmrrobot is? It shows haste and attack power being a better stat than agility.

Husyor · 06/21/10, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by Odas

Now that I think about it, since Rawr is using 2% haste on mongoose instead of 30 haste rating the assumption that mongoose passes berserking at higher gear levels wouldn't be true. This means that we should be comparing black magic with berserking instead of mongoose? Does anyone know what an expected uptime on berserking would be for either stationary fights (Saurfang) or mobile fights (Putricide/LK)? At a first glance it looks like berserking would still beat black magic.

Edit: I got my simcraft working again, and I think simcraft is also has mongoose as 2%. I think berserking is still better than mongoose. The only question is whether black magic suffers less from movement fights than ppm enchants.

Yeah, I was reading this thread the other day and seen that someone had stated that mongoose was only a static 30 haste rating, where I thought it was always assumed to be a flat 2% which made it good. Now that I know, I was going to see if the 2% was always assumed or not, but if so then berserking should be better than mongoose. Time to re-enchant my staff.

Helistar · 06/21/10, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Husyor

Yeah, I was reading this thread the other day and seen that someone had stated that mongoose was only a static 30 haste rating, where I thought it was always assumed to be a flat 2% which made it good. Now that I know, I was going to see if the 2% was always assumed or not, but if so then berserking should be better than mongoose. Time to re-enchant my staff.

I modified simulationcraft to match the new data (haste = 1.19% instead of 2), and with my stuff (almost arpen cap, mostly icc25 stuff), mongoose is still ahead of berserking. The difference irrelevant, anyway, so I kept mongoose, which means that I can use the weapon in bear form in case I need some extra threat.
In case you want to test: it's in engine/sc_player.cpp, lines 1264 and 1265. Replace the (1.0 + 0.02) with (1.0 + 0.0119).

Husyor · 06/21/10, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Helistar

I modified simulationcraft to match the new data (haste = 1.19% instead of 2), and with my stuff (almost arpen cap, mostly icc25 stuff), mongoose is still ahead of berserking. The difference irrelevant, anyway, so I kept mongoose, which means that I can use the weapon in bear form in case I need some extra threat.
In case you want to test: it's in engine/sc_player.cpp, lines 1264 and 1265. Replace the (1.0 + 0.02) with (1.0 + 0.0119).

Just for the record, I think I am 1 point below ArP cap and with a decent amount of 277 and simcraft is putting berserking at near 100 dps increase, possibly about 80 dps before I made the change. Thanks for the help though.

NaturesVoice · 06/22/10, 8:17 AM

I have a question about mongoose giving 30 haste rating instead of the 2% (at lvl 80). How can I alter this in Rawr? I tried editing the EnchantCache file in the data folder but everytime I restart Rawr it's back to its old value

Also how do I get Black Magic as an option in Rawr?
And about Black Magic, if it procs of spells than how can a feral proc it? I've seen the logs from other posters and I've seen 5-6 procs during a fight but I don't see any spells casted besides Faerie Fire. So Shred, Mangle etc. are considered spells? Or is the idea to use Faerie Fire everytime it comes of cooldown?

pintor · 06/22/10, 8:47 AM

Originally Posted by NaturesVoice

I have a question about mongoose giving 30 haste rating instead of the 2% (at lvl 80). How can I alter this in Rawr? I tried editing the EnchantCache file in the data folder but everytime I restart Rawr it's back to its old value

Also how do I get Black Magic as an option in Rawr?
And about Black Magic, if it procs of spells than how can a feral proc it? I've seen the logs from other posters and I've seen 5-6 procs during a fight but I don't see any spells casted besides Faerie Fire. So Shred, Mangle etc. are considered spells? Or is the idea to use Faerie Fire everytime it comes of cooldown?

You need to add in a new enchant for both. Here is how I modeled them:

<Enchant>
    <Id>6010</Id>
    <Name>Black Magic</Name>
    <Slot>TwoHand</Slot>
    <Stats>
      <SpecialEffects>
        <SpecialEffect>
          <Trigger>MangleCatOrShredHit</Trigger>
          <Stats>
            <HasteRating>250</HasteRating>
          </Stats>
          <Duration>10</Duration>
          <Cooldown>35</Cooldown>
          <Chance>0.35</Chance>
          <MaxStack>1</MaxStack>
        </SpecialEffect>
      </SpecialEffects>
      <SpecialEffectCount>1</SpecialEffectCount>
    </Stats>
  </Enchant>
  <Enchant>
    <Id>6001</Id>
    <Name>Mongoose2</Name>
    <Slot>TwoHand</Slot>
    <Stats>
      <SpecialEffects>
        <SpecialEffect>
          <Trigger>MeleeHit</Trigger>
          <Stats>
            <Agility>120</Agility>
            <HasteRating>30</HasteRating>
          </Stats>
          <Duration>15</Duration>
          <Cooldown>0</Cooldown>
          <Chance>-1</Chance>
          <MaxStack>1</MaxStack>
        </SpecialEffect>
      </SpecialEffects>
      <SpecialEffectCount>1</SpecialEffectCount>
    </Stats>
  </Enchant>

You can see from the code that we have found that shred and mangle can proc black magic.

NaturesVoice · 06/22/10, 9:41 AM

Thanks a lot for the explanation. I figured out already that you need to add a new id for the adjusted Mongoose but I had now idea how to do the Black Magic enchant.

Running Rawr now surprises me a lot. Black Magic is less than 1 dps worse than Berserking. So if you find out it procs from more spells than just Mangle and Shred it will surely become the best weapon enchant for me. Are you sure it doesn't proc from Rake as well? Would love to test it but the enchants are pretty expensive.

Mongoose dropped a lot making agility more valuable meaning some hit/exp are changing into agi/hit.