Feral DPS Discussion - Page 61

Demøsthenes · 06/28/10, 11:20 PM

Old question, but I haven't seen anything in last 30 pages bout this....Is it a dps gain or loss to clip dots such as rake and rip? I know at least for dk, clipping is now no longer possible but is the same for kitty dps?

kalbear · 06/28/10, 11:47 PM

It is a loss to clip rip and rake. Rake is especially bad given its short duration, but in general it's very poor. The primary exception is when you've gained a large damage buff (such as being bitten on BQL) or when your target will not be able to refresh dots on it after you hit the rip/rake (such as transitions for Sindragosa or LK). In general, however, it's far better to simply wait until the dot runs out and then refresh. Pooling energy is very rarely a dps loss and is most of the time a DPS gain.

Jone · 06/29/10, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by kalbear

It is a loss to clip rip and rake. Rake is especially bad given its short duration, but in general it's very poor. The primary exception is when you've gained a large damage buff (such as being bitten on BQL) or when your target will not be able to refresh dots on it after you hit the rip/rake (such as transitions for Sindragosa or LK). In general, however, it's far better to simply wait until the dot runs out and then refresh. Pooling energy is very rarely a dps loss and is most of the time a DPS gain.

I agree that clipping rake's a DPS loss, but do you have any analysis leading to your conclusion on rip? I believe there's a reference early in the Feral By Night thread to a simulation that increased DPS when rip could be clipped, but the author discarded the option for his move predictor because it was often impossible to clip rip due to the "more powerful effect" issue a proc could cause.

Simulators and common recommendations in this thread predict a DPS increase if you clip SR with less than 6 seconds left, full cp, and more than 70 energy. Assuming the "more powerful effect" issue doesn't come into play, why wouldn't clipping rip be a DPS increase under the same circumstances?

Taiyri · 06/29/10, 1:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jone

I agree that clipping rake's a DPS loss, but do you have any analysis leading to your conclusion on rip? I believe there's a reference early in the Feral By Night thread to a simulation that increased DPS when rip could be clipped, but the author discarded the option for his move predictor because it was often impossible to clip rip due to the "more powerful effect" issue a proc could cause.

Simulators and common recommendations in this thread predict a DPS increase if you clip SR with less than 6 seconds left, full cp, and more than 70 energy. Assuming the "more powerful effect" issue doesn't come into play, why wouldn't clipping rip be a DPS increase under the same circumstances?

If you didn't have to deal with the "more powerful effect" issue and you could clip it just after a rip tick it probably would be since you would have better up time. But if you clipped right before a tick it would probably be a small dps loss. In my understanding, the reason clipping is bad is because you're basically resetting the timer on when the tick would occur. Say for example that a DoT has just ticked, and you have to wait 3 seconds for the dot to tick again. If you refresh the DoT halfway through that 3 second time span, you now have to wait 4.5 seconds for your DoT to tick (1.5s from the original, and another 3 seconds from the new refreshed DoT). That's less overall damage and less DPS. Now, if you were to refresh it just after the tick, then you would have to wait maybe 3.2s (maybe more depending on lag and human reaction) for your next tick, but now you've increased your DoT uptime, which should equate to more DPS and damage done.

No real math to support my thoughts but that's what makes sense to me. Also, just to reiterate, this is assuming the "more powerful effect" does not come into play.

kalbear · 06/29/10, 3:41 PM

That's exactly correct, Taiyri. There are situations where refreshing rip is going to lead to better overall dps, but they're fairly rare and in general are involved with being off-target for an extended period of time or wasting energy while waiting.

Most of the time refreshing rip after it ends is fine and correct because you get more overall rip damage and waiting a bit is not a dps loss for a cat. Cats are not GCD-bound in their DPS output. Note that most of the time the correct choice is not something else vs. rip; the correct choice is to simply wait for rip to run out.

[quote]Simulators and common recommendations in this thread predict a DPS increase if you clip SR with less than 6 seconds left, full cp, and more than 70 energy. Assuming the "more powerful effect" issue doesn't come into play, why wouldn't clipping rip be a DPS increase under the same circumstances?/quote]Because clipping SR doesn't reduce the number of dot ticks that occur in a time period. SR is a constant effect as long as it is up. Rip is not; it applies a dot tick every 3 seconds based solely on when it was last applied. As soon as you reapply that rip or rake, you reset the timer on when it will tick. Again, the exception can be when you could rip or wait and waste a bit of energy. In that situation, the correct action is to shred.

Demøsthenes · 06/29/10, 5:52 PM

How then does FB work into that rotation, if waiting for rip or rake to do full damage? Is FB worth it if only doing say 2-3 combo points? Or is Shred always the best option, and I can tell you that coming from playing a Frost DK I am spamming all buttons as soon as they come off cooldown, from these last few posts it seems that patience and not spamming an ablility as soon as you have enough energy is best bet?

kalbear · 06/29/10, 6:21 PM

How then does FB work into that rotation, if waiting for rip or rake to do full damage? Is FB worth it if only doing say 2-3 combo points? Or is Shred always the best option, and I can tell you that coming from playing a Frost DK I am spamming all buttons as soon as they come off cooldown, from these last few posts it seems that patience and not spamming an ablility as soon as you have enough energy is best bet?

FB works best when you believe you can do it and lose at most about 8 seconds of Rip time. There isn't a tried and true formula that you can apply that it will work out perfectly; it's always a bet as to whether or not it's a good call due to combo point generation. My general rule of thumb is to FB at minimum energy if I have more than 10 seconds on rip and SR. Otherwise I wait. Again, this depends on your crit rate and expected CP generation; I expect to generate 10 CPs in 18 seconds, so that can work for me. If you don't, or if the chance that you don't is too risky, don't do it. More often than not premature or bad FBing is a DPS loss, so if you're not good about it the best bet is to simply leave it out of normal rotations.

As to waiting and pooling energy - this is one of the skills a good feral DPS can do. Spamming abilities as soon as you have energy means you'll have worse rake/rip uptime, less SR uptime and more wasted CPs. It is tricky, especially coming from other classes that are GCD bound or CD bound, but it's something you simply need to learn.

Daydream_ · 06/30/10, 7:26 AM

Hi,

I've got more off a general question about the "rotation":

Situation: All Dots are on, you got 5 combo points an rip and SR are about to expire in about 5 secs. What do you do? I tend to bash in one more shred, to not reach 100 enegery. Afterwards i rip and then rake or shred (depends on whether rake dropped off) an a fast SR.

Is this the best method to reach the best possible dps?

Thank you!

Impossible3144 · 06/30/10, 9:21 AM

If I'm understanding your situation correctly, you may as well clip Savage Roar, if you would otherwise be risking losing uptime on it. If you have to shred to use up energy, then you can probably still get the 5 CPs for Rip back, depending on your gear. Preferably, though, you'd want to prevent that situation by using SR at 3 or 4 CPs instead, but I know something similar to what you're describing happens to me sometimes as well.

dundermuffin · 06/30/10, 9:10 PM

Originally Posted by Impossible3144

If I'm understanding your situation correctly, you may as well clip Savage Roar, if you would otherwise be risking losing uptime on it. If you have to shred to use up energy, then you can probably still get the 5 CPs for Rip back, depending on your gear. Preferably, though, you'd want to prevent that situation by using SR at 3 or 4 CPs instead, but I know something similar to what you're describing happens to me sometimes as well.

Yes to previous poster...and also remember, in regards to SR and DoT damage: your DoTs will get the 30 or 33% SR bonus (3% from Glyph) if and only if SR is up when you apply the DoT. If SR drops off during the DoT, your Rip/Rake will still do full damage. Similarly, if SR is not up when you apply your DoT, it will not gain the 30 or 33% bonus even if you put it up sometime during the DoT's uptime.

Husyor · 07/05/10, 7:32 PM

I need some help. I can't figure this out.

Kamigami Tools :: CompareBot!

First things to note: my gear looks better overall, but I think my log is pre 25% and his is post 25%. He got TOT 6 times, their fight went over 3 mins which helps for CDs, and he got energy gain from revitalize. He also got a hand of salvation which helps, considering I was trying to parse this week and had to limit myself because of threat.

The main thing is though, I don't understand the Rake line.
The dot uptime is approximately equal(~.3%) yet he has 19 ticks per minute and I only have 17. He has 61 total dot ticks and I have 47. Their fight was longer, but not that much longer and rake ticks every 3 seconds. The fight length is only 21 seconds more, which should be 7 ticks not 14 ticks.

I just noticed he also got heroism twice but didn't die.

• Melthu · 07/05/10, 8:37 PM

Something funny is going on with that parse. His Rakes and Rips consistently tick faster than they should. Here are a few lines of Rip ticks from my combat log:

[16:36:32.240] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7122*
[16:36:34.315] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7123*
[16:36:36.284] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7122*
[16:36:38.277] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7123*
[16:36:40.305] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7123*
[16:36:42.333] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7123*
[16:36:44.205] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7122*
[16:36:46.326] Melthu Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7123*

Notice how the millisecond portion of the tick times fluctuates but always stays around the .300 area (if you've looked indepth at combat logs before you'd notice that the server performs bursts of calculations roughly every 200 milliseconds, so the fact that they aren't exact is normal). Now look at a similar cut of Pariss' log:

[23:23:06.955] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7099*
[23:23:08.858] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7383*
[23:23:10.686] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang 3259
[23:23:12.602] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang 3258
[23:23:14.520] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7383*
[23:23:16.439] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7383*
[23:23:17.798] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang 3258
[23:23:19.327] Pariss Rip Deathbringer Saurfang *7383*

The milliseconds on each tick don't fluctuate, they consistently decrease. This allowed him to get 98 ticks of Rip, which should take 196 seconds, in a 189 second fight. Rake was behaving similarly. Here is a cut of a Rip being applied, being refreshed (by Shred), and then falling off:

[23:23:05.085] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Rip from Pariss
[23:23:11.902] Deathbringer Saurfang's Rip is refreshed by Pariss
[23:23:12.596] Deathbringer Saurfang's Rip is refreshed by Pariss
[23:23:19.959] Deathbringer Saurfang's Rip is refreshed by Pariss
[23:23:23.881] Deathbringer Saurfang's Rip fades

He got all 3 Shreds in so the duration should be 22 seconds, yet it fell off in fewer than 19 seconds. So something's wrong with that parse.

Edit: I'm also skeptical of his auto-attacks. Assuming 100% uptime of Windfury and Swift Retribution (or their counterparts) and 32 seconds of Heroism, he would need over 1500 haste rating to achieve that number of auto-attacks in that short of a fight. At this point I'm left to believe that either the server had a major hiccup for that fight or the log was tampered with.

Husyor · 07/06/10, 12:01 AM

That's kind of what i was thinking, but I wasn't sure and wanted a 2nd opinion. Especially the part about seeing 2 bloodlusts as well.

Helistar · 07/06/10, 8:42 AM

The two heroisms is explained by the two shamans casting at the same time. But that's not the problem:

Originally Posted by Melthu

Edit: I'm also skeptical of his auto-attacks. Assuming 100% uptime of Windfury and Swift Retribution (or their counterparts) and 32 seconds of Heroism, he would need over 1500 haste rating to achieve that number of auto-attacks in that short of a fight. At this point I'm left to believe that either the server had a major hiccup for that fight or the log was tampered with.

I've had a look at the log. It's VERY weird. As much as I can believe almost anything about timestamps being out of sync (I've had my share of log analyzing), there are a few things which don't add up. The rip ticks you mentioned are one. Unless the log is from a beta cataclysm server where haste applies to rip, the dot timing should always be two seconds: instead, as you showed, it's 1.767, or 87.8% of standard duration. On one tick it would not be surprising, but on 7 of them? Also, when lag is present the dispersion increases, your list is very nicely distributed.
Even if it's a beta cataclysm server, the longer cooldowns should mantain the duration, now in the log berserk does this:

[23:23:06.939] Pariss gains Berserk from Pariss
[23:23:19.996] Pariss's Berserk fades

That's a duration of of 13.057 seconds. Guess what, that's a 87.0% shorter than the 15s normal duration of berserk. Weird concidence. Massive lag kicks in, and oh-the-luck, it provides a 2s shortening of Berserk, exactly matching the speedup of rip ticks.
What about DBW proc?

[23:22:58.705] Pariss gains Strength of the Taunka from Pariss
[23:23:23.226] Pariss's Strength of the Taunka fades

24.521s, 82% faster than what it shoud be (at 87% it would be 1.5s longer).

It's impossible to prove that it's deliberate, maybe it REALLY is a PC clock running too fast (btw 87% is a PC clock which advances 3 hours per day), but for me the report has been doctored. Whatever the case, it's an invalid report and any DPS values calculated from it shoud be disregarded.

Gurrshael · 07/06/10, 9:08 AM

This thing (clock running faster/slower than expected) is a technique used in servers with time-scheduled tasks to adjust clock to a new time (DST or just simply time correction) and to not break the schedule.

However, I highly doubt that this is the case given the epeen nature of those rankings. It's more likely that the log has modified timestamps for all players on this boss, which is pretty easy to do.