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Old 08/20/10, 8:22 PM   #931
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
Mongoose isn't a 15/60 though. It's a PPM mechanic. What that means is that the chance of it proccing is a percentage based on your base weapon speed, but it can theoretically proc off of any attack. And it has no internal CD, so if you're lucky it can proc many times in a row. Conversely, if you're unlucky it can proc never.

Whereas black magic has a high percentage chance to proc, but has an internal CD that prevents it from proccing too much.

This hurts PPM mechanics simply because you have fewer chances to trigger the proc when you're doing something like 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off. For a ICD mechanic it doesn't matter significantly, as it will almost always proc as soon as you come up. Put it another way: given a patter of 30 sec on, 30 sec off, and given a 10/45 vs a PPM, in a 3 minute period the 10/45 will very likely trigger 4 times (it's almost a certainty). Assuming that the average proc rate for the PPM is 4 in a 3-minute period of only attacking, the chances of it proccing in that same scenario have been halved due to the lack of action for half the time.

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Old 08/21/10, 7:20 AM   #932
Talep
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Medivh (EU)
Yes I know that mongoose has a ppm proc, but i wanted to show that the bigger the cooldown is, the bigger is the benefit from a 30sec on, 30 sec off mechanics.

And i agree with you, 30sec on, 30 sec off makes an ICD mechanic better, whereas it makes a ppm mechanic less good : there is good odds that you will proc at the end of the 30 sec on, and will not have the proc for its total duration

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Old 08/21/10, 4:47 PM   #933
Helistar
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dalaran (EU)
Since I find that World of Logs or other "generic" log analyzers do an insufficient job at visualizing the events which are important for feral DPS, I've developed a small program which does combat log visualization and analysis aimed at the feral DPS spec.

It's an alpha version, so you should expect trouble. Also, I develop on linux, so I can ensure that the program runs fine with my setup (g++ 4.3.3, libQt 4.6.2).
There's a lot of stuff which should be added, starting with more trinkets, as the program atm only tracks a few of them.

Still, the program is usable and I'd be interested in hearing any feedback/ideas/problems.

You can download it from here: RWF download directory

Read the readme file before downloading. If you're on linux or plan to rebuild the executable yourself you only need the src.tar.gz, otherwise you will need both the winexe.zip and the required DLLs (which is big). If you already have Qt4.6 installed you don't need the libraries. If you opt for the exe, scan it for virus/malware. I don't develop on windows and the machine I used for compilation of the exe is behind a paranoid firewall, but that's all the protection it has.

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Old 08/23/10, 3:37 PM   #934
♦ Carebare
::stare::
 
Carebare's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
I just sent the last 4 posts to the shitcan. Here's the deal: If you're using words like "pretty sure" "I think" or "this should be", you're doing it wrong. Post data/testing to back it up because posting conjecture is not remotely constructive to the topic at hand. Failure to do this will result in infractions/temporary bans until I feel like the point has been adequately absorbed.

<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.

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Old 08/26/10, 6:44 PM   #935
teranosouras
Glass Joe
 
teranosouras's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by kalbear View Post
Mongoose isn't a 15/60 though. It's a PPM mechanic. What that means is that the chance of it proccing is a percentage based on your base weapon speed, but it can theoretically proc off of any attack. And it has no internal CD, so if you're lucky it can proc many times in a row. Conversely, if you're unlucky it can proc never.

Whereas black magic has a high percentage chance to proc, but has an internal CD that prevents it from proccing too much.
The chance of BM never procing is also there sadly as i found looking at this resets fights. --->My Logs<---

Black Magic
Saurfang	5 Procs		26.3% uptime	189sec Fight Length	
Dreamwalker	3 Procs		10.1% uptime	296sec Fight Length
Bloodqueen	5 Procs		17.8% uptime	279sec Fight Length
Rotface		0 Procs		0% uptime	237sec Fight Length
Festergut	0 Procs		0% uptime	223sec Fight Length
Sindragosa	0 Procs 	0% uptime	589sec Fight Length
I 3rd tank all the other fights which is why nothing will show on them.

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Old 08/27/10, 4:29 PM   #936
Ja7us
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by teranosouras View Post
The chance of BM never procing is also there sadly as i found looking at this resets fights. --->My Logs<---

Black Magic
Saurfang	5 Procs		26.3% uptime	189sec Fight Length	
Dreamwalker	3 Procs		10.1% uptime	296sec Fight Length
Bloodqueen	5 Procs		17.8% uptime	279sec Fight Length
Rotface		0 Procs		0% uptime	237sec Fight Length
Festergut	0 Procs		0% uptime	223sec Fight Length
Sindragosa	0 Procs 	0% uptime	589sec Fight Length
I 3rd tank all the other fights which is why nothing will show on them.
Wait, what? The proc chance on black magic is so high that the chance of never seeing a proc (assuming you are capable of proccing it at all) is effectively zero. At a 35% proc rate, the chance of not seeing a proc in just 10 attacks that can proc it (shreds, etc) is only 3%. In your sindragosa attempt, you have more than 100 shreds - the chance of not seeing a proc in 100 shreds is less than 1 in a trillion. Clearly you either unequipped the weapon that was enchanted with BM, changed spec, or there was some other sort of tomfoolery going on.

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Old 08/27/10, 7:10 PM   #937
Kuraitonu
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uldaman
Please I hope someone sees and replies to this, as this is making me slightly hated by my fellow guild-mates.

Hypothetically:
There's a staff/polearm that drops in ICC. Me ( A kitty druid ) and a hunter are eligible to roll/bid on this item. Do I not get priority over this weapon? considering that we have the same iLvl weapon.

I've been lead to believe that the weapon DAMAGE ie. 1000-2000 does affect your kitty's melee damage. Same with the weapon dps. Having a 800-1500 damage weapon would decrease your melee damage. Thus making this weapon more SUITABLE for me since I can benefit more from it since I actually use it for my melee damage, as hunters use it as a stat stick.

I had an argument with my guild whether or not the damage and dps on a weapon effects my dps/melee damage. Me being a long time feral kitty I was getting mad and decided to clear this up on here. Please help!

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Old 08/27/10, 7:49 PM   #938
Leafkiller
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Kuraitonu View Post
Please I hope someone sees and replies to this, as this is making me slightly hated by my fellow guild-mates.

Hypothetically:
There's a staff/polearm that drops in ICC. Me ( A kitty druid ) and a hunter are eligible to roll/bid on this item. Do I not get priority over this weapon? considering that we have the same iLvl weapon.

I've been lead to believe that the weapon DAMAGE ie. 1000-2000 does affect your kitty's melee damage. Same with the weapon dps. Having a 800-1500 damage weapon would decrease your melee damage. Thus making this weapon more SUITABLE for me since I can benefit more from it since I actually use it for my melee damage, as hunters use it as a stat stick.

I had an argument with my guild whether or not the damage and dps on a weapon effects my dps/melee damage. Me being a long time feral kitty I was getting mad and decided to clear this up on here. Please help!
If you are talking about Distant Land then as a feral you should have priority over a hunter on it. The dps difference is not close since a hunter only uses it as a "stat stick" and you benefit from the weapon damage (expressed as FAP) - the same as all melee. We give melee preference on melee weapons over hunters but (of course) give hunters preference on bows and guns. The only exception we made was on the 271 Oathbinder, the polearm off of LK normal 25. The ferals all passed on that for the hunters since it is better for them than the 277 Distant Land while the 277 Distant Land is better for ferals. If we do get HLK down, then the ferals will have priority on the 284 Oathbinder again due to it being a much bigger up for a feral than a hunter.

Edit: Here is a link for the formula for Feral Attack Power (FAP): Feral attack power - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft which should clarify for your guild that feral cats, like all melee dps, benefit from the raw dps of a weapon and that our weapons are not "stat sticks".

Last edited by Leafkiller : 08/27/10 at 7:55 PM.

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Old 08/27/10, 8:43 PM   #939
teranosouras
Glass Joe
 
teranosouras's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Ja7us
Wait, what? The proc chance on black magic is so high that the chance of never seeing a proc (assuming you are capable of proccing it at all) is effectively zero. At a 35% proc rate, the chance of not seeing a proc in just 10 attacks that can proc it (shreds, etc) is only 3%. In your sindragosa attempt, you have more than 100 shreds - the chance of not seeing a proc in 100 shreds is less than 1 in a trillion. Clearly you either unequipped the weapon that was enchanted with BM, changed spec, or there was some other sort of tomfoolery going on.
That was my thoughts too. The weapon was equipped and not broken. The only other weapon i carry on me is my tanking weapon and that has mongoose on it. As there we no mongoose procs then that isn't the case either.
My rake/rip tick damage isn't much different from my other fights, where the log shows BM procs, so the weapon and the 4kish FAP is gives me was there and in effect.

Perhaps the logs messed up?

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Old 08/28/10, 12:43 AM   #940
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
I notice that the 3 fights where BM did not proc all occurred in a row. I don't recall ever running into a problem with the combat log missing one specific spell randomly in the middle of a parse, so most likely you have a 3rd weapon without an enchant (or possibly an enchant that doesn't proc, like Scourgebane) that you had equipped for those fights, or you've discovered a bug that prevents BM from proccing. Which isn't entirely unlikely when you consider the fact that BM proccing on Shred and Mangle in the first place is likely a bug as well, but I would lean towards you simply having the wrong weapon equipped for those bosses.

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Old 08/28/10, 1:02 PM   #941
Shmanel
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Deathwing
Looking over the logs a bit, something happened that caused it to stop proccing. If you look at the logs, there is a gap in BM procs from your death on Sindragosa#1 until 1 min after Blood Princes die. You don't have any Mongoose procs until Putricide, so you didn't equip your tanking weapon. Also, your dps was similar, so it doesn't look like you un-equipped your weapon to save repairs and then forgot to put it back on. It also comes back on after Princes when you went back to dps.

Is it possible that somehow your death on Sindragosa somehow broke the weapon enchant until you re-equipped it after Princes? It's either that or you equipped some other non-proccing weapon; no Mongoose, BM, or Berserk in that time.

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Old 09/01/10, 7:30 AM   #942
Robosaurus
Von Kaiser
 
Robosaurus's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Khaz'goroth
Been testing out a new opening which appears to give higher DPS on fights where you can reliably estimate time until engagement, and don't have to move significantly to get to the boss.

It centres around using Gift of the Wild to proc Clearcasting (GotW appears to have a % chance per member of the raid)

Time
-8 Gift of the Wild
-7 GotW again if clearcasting isn't up.
-6 Cat Form
-2 Haste Pot
-1 Stealth
0 Ravage

If you need to get to the boss, shift haste pot and stealth back one second and use Feral charge (does not consume clearcasting).

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Old 09/01/10, 11:06 AM   #943
Moonpie
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Bloodhoof (EU)
Any ability that procs Clearcasting could be used, there's no need for Gotw (particularly since it uses a reagent and has a high mana cost) although you claim it has a far higher chance of proccing Omen than a normal spell, I will try to test that later if someone else doesn't get there first I'll just assume you're correct for now. I also assume you use Ravage instead of mangle to make best use of the 'free' attack even though Ravage is suboptimal?

If you want to proc Omen more than I suggest you use abilities during downtimes such as waiting to renew SR or Rip falling off. I make a habit of using Natures Grasp when I'm not doing anything else as it has a chance to proc it, I use Barkskin as well on fights where I don't need it for survivability. I can't say it makes a noticable difference to my dps but an extra shred per fight is always appreciated.

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Old 09/01/10, 12:13 PM   #944
a civilian
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Sargeras
It is well established that gift of the wild has one chance to proc clearcasting per target it hits; see, for example, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-d...Talent_details.

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Old 09/01/10, 12:22 PM   #945
Amiera
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Daggerspine
Originally Posted by Robosaurus View Post
Been testing out a new opening which appears to give higher DPS on fights where you can reliably estimate time until engagement, and don't have to move significantly to get to the boss.

It centres around using Gift of the Wild to proc Clearcasting (GotW appears to have a % chance per member of the raid)

Time
-8 Gift of the Wild
-7 GotW again if clearcasting isn't up.
-6 Cat Form
-2 Haste Pot
-1 Stealth
0 Ravage

If you need to get to the boss, shift haste pot and stealth back one second and use Feral charge (does not consume clearcasting).
I've been doing something similar to this for quite some time now; I thought it was well known. The only difference is that I'm using the OOC proc for a free mangle at the beginning of the fight instead of ravage, since it allows you to get your first rip up that much more quickly.

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