You want to be as close to hit capped (230 with draenai, 263 without) as you can.
That's extremely subjective. All the hard evidence points to hit being a less than ideal stat for ferals. If you personally like the stabilizing effects of hit, that's fine, but stating that the hit cap should be an important goal for everybody is misleading.
So yes ideally you want to keep yourself hit capped and if at all possible at least the dodge exp cap (64 exp rating with primal precision).
This is just plain wrong. Using numbers from the combat ratings thread, 131.16 expertise rating is required for 6.5% dodge reduction with Primal Precision.
You want to be as close to hit capped (230 with draenai, 263 without) as you can. The reason for that is its hard enough to maintain our cycles with all our hits going through, it is going to be even harder to maintain the cycles if attacks are missing. So yes ideally you want to keep yourself hit capped and if at all possible at least the dodge exp cap (64 exp rating with primal precision).
Thanks for the reply, but I have to ask, do you play a druid at all? We don't need to be hit capped by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just wondering if there is a critical point at which hit rating becomes 'too' low. There are many better choices than hit rating for gear for a feral druid, but I'm checking to see if I should be 'close' to cap or not by giving up a bit of ArP.
I'm just wondering if there is a critical point at which hit rating becomes 'too' low. There are many better choices than hit rating for gear for a feral druid, but I'm checking to see if I should be 'close' to cap or not by giving up a bit of ArP.
I haven't done the simulation, but I very much doubt it. The only reason for hit rating to increase in value on the low end is the contribution of consecutive misses to over-capping energy; even with zero hit rating, you should still only be getting consecutive misses less than 1% of the time, and those will only over-cap your energy occasionally (mostly during berserk or tf).
If you want a precise answer though, the simulator ought to do just fine at simulating your gear; try swapping in one piece of hit gear on the simulator and compare the results.
The only times hit or expertise are ever worth like, magically more or less are:
-right almost hit/exp capped where going over its worth nothing
-some unquantifiable "i don't have to worry about missing/being dodged ever so i can just mash the next button knowing what i did before that landed." If you're focusing on your damage and such, that should be a pretty minimal effect anyway.
The only times hit or expertise are ever worth like, magically more or less are:
-right almost hit/exp capped where going over its worth nothing
-some unquantifiable "i don't have to worry about missing/being dodged ever so i can just mash the next button knowing what i did before that landed." If you're focusing on your damage and such, that should be a pretty minimal effect anyway.
Well, there's also the case where a miss is a wipe -- for example, if you're the only one who can interrupt on Vezax.
Well, there's also the case where a miss is a wipe -- for example, if you're the only one who can interrupt on Vezax.
There are bigger problems if you are the only one who can inturrpt for Vezax. Feral druids, while they can inturrpt on that fight, have to gimp their dps so much it would be a very poor use of resources to do. I had to do it one night for our 10 man and I only manage 4k dps, where as it is usally 5-6k. The only reason I did it instead of our DK tank was because he was having a hard time maintaining good threat while worrying about inturrpts. It *might* be necessary in a 10man, still unlikely, but definitely a extremely low possibility in a 25 man. It is better to use DKs/Warriors/Rogues/Shaman than a druid.
Hey guys, I don't want to be a bother, but I have small problem and I'd appreciate some advice. Yesterday I swapped my 2pc T7 (head and shoulders) + 2pc T8 (hands and legs) which were gemmed with old ArPen gems (I was doing roughly around 4k dps on a dummy with shred idol - I know mangle idol would be more appropriate here, but that's not the crux of my problem) for 4pc T8 (in terms of off-set gear that means that I lost Winter's Icy Embrace (chest) and "gained" Treacherous Shoulderpads (shoulders)). Since I don't have Grim Toll nor Mjollnir Runestone I decided to put some agility gems in instead of ArPen ones (basically I have half of both), since my crit was lacking in my previous set (I had arond 47%self buffed, now I have arond 51,5%self buffed). My ArPen dropped from around 550 to 450. With my crit improved I replaced Mirror of Truth for Banner of Victory to gain some of my lost ArPen back. So far so good. I was glad to find out that Rawr agrees with my changes (even though the simulator still prefers agility gems over arpen gems).
The problem of this is that the theory doesn't coincide with practice, when I try my new setup on the dummy. Effectively I do approximately the same dps, but on most tries it even drops for around 100dps. If I was using SR at 5CP before, now I try to do it with 1 or 2CP (as proposed with 4pcT8), but somehow I still have more trouble upkeeping all the (de)buffs&bleeds on the target. More often than not both bleeds and mangle seem to be expiring in one second interval. And if I manage to find a good balance I never seem to be able to incorporate any FB into the rotation. If both SR and Rip have more than 8seconds left I rather clip SR than FB, since I've tried FB a few times and it resulted in daunting Rip and SR downtime. Any helpful input would be much appreciated. Currently I'm consisdering going back to the previous set.
Long Question, short answer: We are talking about raid settings, mostly even full support raid settings. We don't want to maximize dummy dps.
If you decide not to trust the math, you are free to do so.
Sorry for not updating my guide to the new patch. I'm on vacation in the US at the moment and will update the first post the next weekend.
To expand, in raidsettings you have much more agility and combopoint generation to keep the timers up reliably. If anything 4pct8 helps in tight timer situations as you can get away with 1/2 pt SR's (4/5 is still more desirable). Dummy dps doesnt scale linear with raidbuffs so you cant say that due to your dummy dps going down your raiddps will go down.
- new idol of mutilation is BiS idol
- 4T8 < 2T9 + 2T8 < 2T9 plus high iLvl offsetpieces < 4T9
I'm not so sure when it's wise to go for passive ArP and not using Mjolnir / Grim Toll anymore. I think this is gear dependent and I shouldn't include it in the guide.
I also didn't change neither the weapon enchantments nor the BiS list yet since I'm waiting for more input on this.
4T9 will almost certainly not be worth gearing for. The bonus is pathetic and only the T9 shoulders have armor pen, while there are 245/258 offset options in each slot that do have armor pen.
my feral theorycrafter buddy seems to agree that T9 is bad... I wonder how good 2 piece T8 + 2 piece T9 will be though. I mean, the extended duration on rake means you can apply it less often, but really, according to some of what I've read on here, the damage per energy that rake provides relies also on its ability to proc extra clearcasts. 4 piece T9 would remove rake's usefulness for that purpose. Would rake then become obsolete?
I mean, 5% increased crit on rips and ferocious bites... It just doesn't seem superbly significant. Now if the stat increases are so large as to overcome this, then sure, I'd believe it... but I want someone who's done the math to tell me this. Could it be that T9 is actually worse than T8.5, but the heroic version is actually better than T8 because of the change in stats?
Feral gearing just got stupidly complicated >.<
And what of ar pen? There's no ar pen on this stuff.
Meh... at least T9 is probably the coolest we've looked... like... ever. haha
anyway, at the moment, 2 pc T8/8.5 (Conq head, val legs) with T7.5 shoulders and gloves. I was wondering if the new badge shoulders and another pair of gloves would be better. I mean, I suppose I could live without the extended timers. Since I'm usually mangle b**** for my guild (-_- sometimes I don't get all 3 shreds to extend rip. It's manageable if you're smart about it.
Also, I was reading on the world of warcraft forums...
someone said something like if you don't use facemauler, you're and idiot and you must enjoy gimping yourself...
Is facemauler really that effective? I never tried it... I just use NeedToKnow
I personally dont use the addon because i somehow dont like the idea of an addon telling me what to press next. I'd recommend however trying it out, just to see what you are capable of using the addon, and then if you dont like it you at least know where you should be damage-wise, and if you have something to improve or not.
I personally dont use the addon because i somehow dont like the idea of an addon telling me what to press next.
^This.
There are other variables I take into consideration when clawing something's back that I use to better optimize my dps including trinket/enchant procs, position or target changes, health of target, type of target, etc.
For instance, I might wait a few seconds longer for my Grim Toll to proc before popping Bezerk especially when there's <3m in the fight. Or I'll refresh my Rip if there's only a tick or two left on Lord Jaraxxus before switching to his Mistress, who may be burned so fast that I won't even waste a Rip on her but rather continue Shredding, maybe a FB, and then use my remaining combo pts just before she drops to refresh my SR before going back to Jaraxxus. And what about when pvping or doing dailies?
Therefore, I would rather use an addon like TellMeWhen that only displays dot/temp buffs/procs so I can make more objective decisions based on my current situation. Plus addons that just display info vs. telling you what skill to use require that you think more, which, consequently, can make you a better player.
There are other variables I take into consideration when clawing something's back that I use to better optimize my dps including trinket/enchant procs, position or target changes, health of target, type of target, etc.
For instance, I might wait a few seconds longer for my Grim Toll to proc before popping Bezerk especially when there's <3m in the fight. Or I'll refresh my Rip if there's only a tick or two left on Lord Jaraxxus before switching to his Mistress, who may be burned so fast that I won't even waste a Rip on her but rather continue Shredding, maybe a FB, and then use my remaining combo pts just before she drops to refresh my SR before going back to Jaraxxus. And what about when pvping or doing dailies?
Therefore, I would rather use an addon like TellMeNow that only displays dot/temp buffs/procs so I can make more objective decisions based on my current situation. Plus addons that just display info vs. telling you what skill to use require that you think more, which, consequently, can make you a better player.
You realize of course that fbn doesn't keep you from thinking for yourself right? Just because I use a calculator doesn't mean I can't do long division. Not using a helpful addon seems somewhat technophobic. A computer can just process information MUCH more effectively than we can (duh?).
Would love to see the relative dps of those who use fbn v. those that do not over the course of a few fights. Have a feeling that some will be close but that on many more we'd see people without the addon falling behind. "Thinking more" about a dps rotation means you aren't thinking as much about the encounter. I used to not use fbn and still frequently top guild meters but my variances in dps were significantly higher across bosses and my situational awareness was relatively compromised by my brain processing a crapload of timers and debuffs.
I believe you are taking what I said and warping it into some bash of FbN, or even people that use FbN. This not at all what I meant.
Originally Posted by triman
You realize of course that fbn doesn't keep you from thinking for yourself right?
I never said this. I said "addons that just display info vs. telling you what skill to use require that you think more..", the key word being "more". You even point out the "thinking more" point later in your post so I'm not sure why you made this statement / asked the question.
Originally Posted by triman
Not using a helpful addon seems somewhat technophobic. A computer can just process information MUCH more effectively than we can (duh?).
"Duh" is right, and I agree. Not sure why you state this when my post is about using an addon.
FbN does not take into account the other variables that I mentioned (trinkets, target, movement, encounter dynamics, etc). Therefore, even though a computer can "process information MUCH more effectively than we can", the fact that FbN doesn't take into account all the variables that can make a noticeable difference in your dps means there's room for improvement on the player's part.
Originally Posted by triman
"Thinking more" about a dps rotation means you aren't thinking as much about the encounter.
True, but does that imply that you will make a mistake that will have a noticeable adverse effect on the encounter? More on this in a bit.
Originally Posted by triman
I used to not use fbn and still frequently top guild meters but my variances in dps were significantly higher across bosses and my situational awareness was relatively compromised by my brain processing a crapload of timers and debuffs.
Some people can obvious process this information faster than others. An example would be top rated arena players who have to process and react quickly. Point is I believe I can process "a crapload of timers and debuffs" with the help of an addon other than FbN and still be able to keep my situational awareness in a given encounter.
Different example: I can drive thru downtown Chicago in my manual transmission car just fine, but I know others that can't & consequently grind the hell outta gears or stall when driving thru traffic. Interpret that however you'd like.
Anyway, the point of my original reply was to say I agree with Inaiwae's statement regarding "an addon telling me what to press next", and why I prefer to use something else. And for the record, I think FbN is a good addon, but I like the freedom and flexibility that I get with an alternative. To each their own.
Move prediction is one aspect of FBN which can be turned off and does in fact take into account your current stats, including procs from trinkets or enchants. The other monitors are a rather nice one stop package for monitoring cooldowns, trinkets and their cooldowns, as well as tracking the debuffs. Even if you don't use the move prediction, it's still a very nice addon with a lot of useful information display features for both cat and bear. The move prediction is also useful for learning what situations require different "rotations", for example, what set of procs and conditions lead to Shred being better DPE then Rake for you and your gear.
It kind of irks me that people talk about these mods as if they are an absolute neccessity. I'm just going to throw in the fact I find playing my feral druid as DPS a ton more enjoyable without using any DPS addons period, than I do with mods such as Dottimers, FBN, etc. You don't need ANY addon to play this class to the best of its ability, and still manage to not stand in void zones.
On a lighter note, I do feel that they are helpful learning tools to newer or less experienced ferals. I did attempt to use FBN one time, and I think that if you're looking to learn the class and play it well, that this is the addon hands down to use. I've never really heard of any of the other ones being discussed.
It kind of irks me that people talk about these mods as if they are an absolute neccessity... You don't need ANY addon to play this class to the best of its ability, and still manage to not stand in void zones.
With no addons I think it would be quite difficult to keep looking at your target to try and find mangle/trauma, rip, rake, and other debuffs on your target & temp buffs/debuffs on you, and still keep an optimal rotation. You are definitely a purest
With no addons I think it would be quite difficult to keep looking at your target to try and find mangle/trauma, rip, rake, and other debuffs on your target & temp buffs/debuffs on you, and still keep an optimal rotation. You are definitely a purest
Nah, its just that in BC, playing a druid was so mindnumbingly simple that you could do it in alt-Z mode (Mangle/Shred to 4 CP's Rip...repeat), that you didn't need addons at all then. Come WotLK where Feral DPS easily jumps to the most complex rotation, I didn't know about the addons that existed until about 4-5 months into the release, and by then I had gotten so used to doing it my way that any other way just seems painful to learn. It keeps me entertained though.
As for how I manage my rotation, I just assume trauma is up 24/7, if our DPS warrior dies or switches targets he lets me know via a nice spam macro system we have set up. I'm able to watch my CP's and buffs/debuffs manually - using the default UI, your debuffs on the boss are displayed at the very top of the bosses debuffs which makes it simple to track those since they are always in the same exact place. As for watching Savage Roar, its always on either the first or second row of buffs.
I also don't know if this personally helps me but I sit very far back from my monitor, and it allows me to get a fuller view of everything going on at once. I wouldn't say I'm a purist though :/ Anyways, not trying to derail the discussion...just throwing in the fact that these addons aren't 100% required, but FBN is probably the best to use if you were to use one as it has pretty much everything you need in one neat little package, and you can customize it to turn off certain features.
LOL my ability to process information is just fine...I had extensive experience with feral dps both pre and post move predictor mods (starting with facemauler). The mods felt clumsy and 'wrong' for a couple weeks until you understood the way they behaved and their (evolving) limitations. FBN at this point is so good its, imo, almost foolish to argue that person would be consistently as good. Its a "learner tool" like a computer is to a typewriter. I can still type just fine with my old typewriter but I'm going to be consistently faster and more productive with a computer. Thats sort of where I feel this argument is headed.
Is it necessary? No. Is it necessary to consistently perform at the top of what we are capable of? At this point in the evolution of FBN I'd argue yes. Computers can do elementary calculations FAR faster than we can. And not only that but even if you are a wiz at situational awareness it still will allow you to process even more raid/environment/boss critical information faster than if you are having to think 12-15 seconds ahead about such matters as potentially colliding timer bars, trinket hidden cooldowns, possibilities of ooc procs, etc, etc, etc. There is always more information you can process and react to if you aren't busy thinking about something else.
He is right, and in order to come back into the discussion I want to creat a little debate :
The dps guid suggest to keep rake on but what do you think about Rake ? Is Rake usefull when you concentrate on armor pen ? Does it do enough dmg for the energy it costs ? Even with the 2% proc ?
For myself I think that rake is good when you haven't a good gear and/or when you gem agi, or anything that improves your AP, bleeding dmg.
And in order have a better view of the question I tried severals dps rotation and always ended with a better dps when I just kept SV, Mangle and Rip up and dps with Shred (in fact spamming Shred). There were sometimes about 300 to 500 dps difference between using Rake or not using Rake at all.
My average dmg with rake are 700 + 5900 bleeding dmg = ~6650 and for shred its ~9800, according that I have at least 59% crit in raid 25 (52.5% base, then I go to 57% with buffs, and then the totems, and so on). Shred cost ~17% more than rake (or rake cost ~14% less), and if Rake costed same as Shred (+17% dmg) it would do 7780 dmg, and thats again less than Shred.
And you even dont need to apply on rake to gain 20% dmg on shred before applying Rip, cause Muti Rogues open with Garrot for the 15% dmg bonus.
(When I tried the dps rotations that was on Vezax 25, I had 28.5% armorpen, now I have 37%)
08/14/09, 2:54 PM
sometimes I don't get all 3 shreds to extend rip. It's manageable if you're smart about it.
Similar Threads
