Well this is the problem the cat community suffers at the moment. RAWR used to be our reference. We used to trust RAWR.
The fact is: Cat DPS is very very complex. Slight adjustments will lead to different results. There's so much that can change the outcome. There is no rule for every playstyle. It depends on your rip and rake uptime, on your shred and FB usage and many other things.
My experience is, that RAWR will start to suggest ArP gemming a little later, at around 350-400 ArP. But then again there seems to be some hidden "magic thresholds" where the stat value table changes completely, when only one item is changed. I noticed some very odd behaviour. Sometimes Haste Rating jumps from fifth to first place in the RAWR stat value table and Str getting better than Agi, when only slight changes are made to my gear.
The odd behaviour that you refer to isn't odd at all when you understand what it is telling you and how it works things out. It has been explained quite a few times in various threads, from memory Allev has described quite clearly why various stats shoot up in relation to others with what appear to be minor changes.
You are choosing to ignore the huge red text on the Relative Stat Values tab you are looking at in Rawr, the warning is there to try and prevent exactly what you are doing.
So given that you don't understand what it is telling you, you shouldn't offer advice to others. Let them research, read and learn instead of spoon feeding them answers to already answered questions, especially when you don't understand why the tools give the answers they give.
Having said that I thought your initial post in this thread was quite useful and good, you can't help how people choose to interpret what you summarised.
Cluey I do, in fact, understand what the red text is telling me.
Of course the relative Stat Values tab changes whenever adjustments to gear are being made. That's why it's called "relative".
I find it quite offending that you accuse me of not understanding the text.
What I do not understand is HOW these changes emerge. I haven't seen the algorithm for RAWR until now. If you've got it please share it with us.
If you can explain me, why sometimes Haste tops the chart with Agi being behind Str, ArP AND Crit and after gaining 2 more Crit Rating, the table completely changes to Agi>Str>ArP>Hit/Exp>Haste (besides - with 500 passive ArP!) then I would be very grateful.
I'm always saying that the value of every piece of gear and every stat highly depends on all of your other items, on your buffs, on your support and on your playstyle as well. That's exactly what the Red Text is telling us aswell.
That being said, it just would be wonderful to learn more about the calculations RAWR is making. How is the Value of the Stats - the relative Stat Value tab - generated? THIS, and not general changes of stat values, is sometimes unclear for me and this is what I am calling "odd behaviour".
As far as my understanding of RSV, it is basically a measure of how much extra dps would you gain if you added a single point of agi/crit rating/haste rating etc. Like Rawr/Astrlyian states, this is a terrible method of comparing potential upgrades, it's pretty obvious that it can and is inaccurate for alot of reasons.
DPS upgrades don't come in allotments of 1 item value, because of how armorpen scales adding 1 arp might be worse then 1 agi but 30 arp could very possibly be better then 30 agi.
Rawr is built as a model, you specify the fight - the length the buffs, adding 1 haste at a certain point might give you 2 extra attacks but 1 haste at another point might give you only 1 extra attack in the specific model that you have set. (Breakpoints/rounding breakpoints exist for other stats, caps/soft caps exist for parry/hit/arp).
In the end I'm quite sure Astrlyian has put a reasonable amount of effort in trying to smooth out these problems (the smoothing itself depending on how its done may mislead results even more) and in the end it's just not a feasible way of evaluating how valuable a stat is in "general" - hence the GIANT RED WARNING.
I KNOW that RSV is not there for comparing stats in general. I don't know how often I have to point this out.
Everything you said is completely right, Xantcha, and I am fully aware of these facts.
All I'm asking for is clarification for how these calculations are made.
There have to be some breakpoints, thresholds or whatever where suddenly one stat grants more or less DPS as usual (Xantcha already stated the haste example). But as long as I do not know why and how these differences are calculated, I call them "odd behaviour" (which is perhaps some unlucky description, I have to admit this)
Don't get me wrong - I love the work both of them, Nightcrowler and Astrylian, have made. But at the moment the two incredible good models sometimes provide different results. While FBN is completely comprehensible because he gave us the code and we are discussing it, we actually have no idea how RAWR really works (again: please correct me, if I am wrong here and the code is publicised anywhere)
You can download the source code for rawr (including all the models) straight from the rawr website so I would hardly say how the rawr.cat model works is a secret. Anyone with a basic understanding of programming can download and take a look at the model themselves. Rawr is a collabarotive project so It wouldn't be unusual at all for there to be several people working on maintaining/updating/improving the rawr.cat model.
From my memory the first rawr.cat model was initially modelled off Toskk's Cat dps model, but was modified to suit rawr and it's functions. I'm not sure if it's been totally rebuilt from scratch or just constantly built on since the first version but I would probably take a look there if you wanted a brief understanding on how the rawr model calculates dps.
The code is publicized. You can view the coding on RAWR's Website. The only issue is that it's coded in C# instead of C++ that FBN is. It's similar in syntax, but the way it's presented is different.
Click here to check out the latest updates to RAWR. Just click the change set number to view the coding from the internet, or once in the change set, you can download the set to tinker or compile your own version of that change set: Rawr - Source Code
As for how it's read, most of the class info is placed in their respected folder. Procs are generally calculated from the RAWR.BASE module.
I'm sort of new to feral dps and I'm in a guild where we can clear uld 25 and down yogg. I'm having issues on fights with constant moving and primarily switching targets. What kind of rotation if any should I use on phase 1 of yogg's fight. I try and get off a mangle or 2 then a FB on the targets becaues it's almost impossible to shred with the constant movement of that part of the fight and I just waste time trying to get behind them. So I just spam mangle and FB while sometimes keeping SR up. Any tips or info on fights like this and others which require alot of movement? Thanks for the help!
I'm by no means a "pro" cat DPS, but this is what I do for phase one of Yogg specifically. I get 5cp's on the first mob and SR. then the others i generally put about a 3cp rip on depending on what time i have. I chuck FFF up if i'm running in too. Phase one in my experience you wont beat the others for it. P2 you'll shine. And P3 if your on the brain you'll do quite well too. If your on adds in P3, I just FFF asap and mangle/shred them down. Theres not really time for anything else and FB will blow all your energy.
Damage isn't a huge deal in Phase 1 of Yogg. If you've made it to Yogg, you have the damage to get through P1 easily. Actually, the more common problem I see is OVER-damage of the targets, blowing them up before the tanks have them positioned correctly to harm Sara. I usually put up mangle and rake, then shred, bite or roar depending on my CPs and buffs, and get out. You don't have to work too hard at P1, and in my experience, overzealous casters will make up for any damage you don't put on the adds.
On P1 of Yogg, I actually avoid putting up big rips - they end up causing problems for kiting the adds back. I usually just either do a 5pt SR or a big FB, and just do a bit of damage. There shouldn't be any real problem with doing DPS on these; P1 is a coordination and tank check more than anything else.
Trust me, your DPS will skyrocket when you get to P2. That's where a feral really shines.
My guild runs melee heavy (I guess?) and aside from ret pallies and enh shaman (both likely to die from volley+explosion) we are attacking the guardians from 100-0 (run out if you get sara's favor though) With the exception of 1 light, we often have such excess time between adds that I'm usually starting with near full energy every time (especially considering letting the tank actually get aggro and move the mob next to sara).
I strongly recommend people use a feral druid or rogue to sprint in at the start and intentionally hit a cloud to spawn a 2nd Guardian. At least with Rogues and Feral Druids we can burn our 3m cooldowns at the start and have them up again for the brain. This gets you through P1 a lot faster and cleaner than not doing it, because adds spawn faster as you go longer, and the p1-p2 transition can often leave you with 2 adds up if you take too long; an extra at the start beats the hell out of an extra at the end. I would never Rip on P1 Guardians, Druids require mobs to allow sustaining Mangle, Rake, Rip, and SR in order to do optimal DPS, so on single adds (ie. no swipe) that die within 20 seconds our options get limited to Mangle-SR-Rake-Shred-FB if you have 4-5cp and the mob is about to die.
Getting behind the Guardians shouldn't be that big of an issue, the tank should always be moving in the same direction and move very little at that (unless you dps them away from sara, and then have the tank drag them in, which is a strat you should only use if melee can't avoid the giant green gas, in which case, you're pretty much hosed in terms of p1 dps) I really can't give you a "Do this rotation and it will always work" because I'd be a liar. You have mobs with low health, a random target damage buff, and random movement preventing some ranged from doing DPS sometimes; combined the mob is going to live anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds (made up numbers) And of course different guilds will be faster than others. If you are fighting guardians back to back (you kill one after the previous one spawns) and are able to attack something 90% of the time, I suggest the standard Mangle-SR-Rake-Shred-TF-Berserk opening and treat the cycle basically the same as on a Boss except FB instead of Rip. If you have a lot of downtime, it's going to depend on 4t8 or not, with the 4t8 you'll want a high CP SR that will last you through 2 mobs, in effect SR-FB-FB- as finishers. With high downtime and not 4t8, either open or finish mobs with 1cp SR's so they last just long enough for you to FB and get 1cp again.
Sunder and FF are multiplicative with ArPen from gear, your guildie is wrong. The hard cap is always exactly as has been stated in this thread. Warriors may get confused about this because Mace Spec and Battle Stance are additive with ArPen from gear.