Calculations made by nightcrowler showed, that rake is still useful even when you are at the ArPcap. Since it costs less energy than shred, thus generating CP a little faster, shred needs to be about 10% more efficient than rake to really outperform it.

That's what I remember.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

what do you thinkk about this spec.
pvp mix pve

Its not the right topic for this post, and by the way dual spec exist, and If you choose to be a Feral Pve, a Feral PvP and a Resto PvP or Pve, you will understand with time that you will have to do with only 2 specs, or lose gold. Mix spec, exept for resto and perhaps for Mookin donc work with Feral. I say this from personals experiences.

And to come back to the discussion about rake, explain me why rake makes me lose 300 to 500 dps ?

About the Idol of Mutilation being best in Slot.

From my Experience, Ravenous Beast and Worship Idols work out as a better overall dps (For me at least)

Might be because I do not have the Darkmoon Card Greatness, and my Agi unbuffed is somewhere around 1100.

DPS difference, not tested on dummies however but in actual raids seem to be around 200 dps lower than with Worship/Ravenous Beast.

Was quite upset after wasting so many badges on the Idol also, however I do like it for tanking.

Sorry,maybe my english is not as good as I always thought.
Does this mean that Mutilation is BiS no matter if you have to mangle or not and the other three should be taken only if you cannot afford it? (That's what I read)
Or does it mean that Corruptor is BiS since I have to mangle?

I have 50% crit unbuffed and 506 AP

Thanks in advance.

He means after that Mutilation idol the other ones are BiS for you.
So Mutilation is BiS.

If you read the tooltip for The Idol of Mutilation it says the 200 agility has a chance to proc on Mangle and Shred. It seems to have nearly 100% uptime too.

Corruptor only gives 153 agility, so whether you have to mangle or not Idol of Mulitation is BiS for all dps feral druids.

Well, as I said with simple basics calculs you can easely prove that Shred always do much dmg per energy than rake, and the 2% proc dont make it good even. So why does FBN wants you to keep rake up ? There is a mistake somewhere. You can look my stats and stuff, armory link works.

@Haargot:

FBN doesn't want you to keep always rake up. FBN want you to use rake if rake is better. Actually shred should be around 10% more DPE thank rake to be better due to higher CP generation given by the lower energy cost of rake.
The FBN addon takes care of 2T8 bonus, 2T9 bonus and everything else. There are situations where shred became better than rake but are situations. Actually it also depends on your ap and crit because those abilities scales differently with them.
With a standard T8 itemization you'll reach a situation where shred is better than rake only with procs (for istance mongoose/berserking + grim toll or the rune), with T9 gear level expecially if you are going for the passive arpen cap you will reach the shred>rake scenario but 2T9 will save it. With 2T9 bonus (3 more seconds on rake), rake will be better (in general) than shred again and probably Blizz has introduced that tier bonus for that reason.

why not directly after TF?

The damage bonus you gain from Tigers Fury is cancelled when you use Berserk. Thus, you should allow the Tiger's Fury buff to wear off before using Berserk. Remember the instant energy gain from using TF is something you spec into.

Another reason besides the damage buff, is if you go into berserk presumably with rip and SR still up, you can easily get off 2 FBs, then refresh those(rip and sr), then right after berserk get in another FB with TF

WOW I have been doing that wrong since day 1 then. I always use beserk after TF so i have full energy bar. TY for tip. I will have to try this now.

I recently got away from using TF and Berserk back to back, took some mental retraining.

I was always under the impression that you keep Rake up but don't clip it to refresh it, as you lose a DoT tick that way.

Am I incorrect in my memory that at one point the priority was keep up SR, Mangle, Rake, Rip, you could cliip SR but shouldn't clip Rake, Rip or Mangle? Shred was your CP generator in the interim. Should I be using Rake to generate CP if the DPE compare is better and not worry about the dot ticks?

I'll fiddle with some DPE readings for my particular gearset, but I'm interested in what the boundary/threshold values are that tend to drive that comparison to go one way or the other.

Would be ironic if all this time I've been doing it wrong.

There was a arguement that went on for a few pages in one of the threads about feral DPS that discussed this, but I could never find a reliable answer on it as no one seemed to find a definite, just a bunch of "what if"s and "should"s.

If this is correct, then when do you pop berserk? Do you just pool energy and stop attacking until about 70-80? I've always done it TF - Berserk for full energy.

Keep in mind the TF bonus only lasts 6 seconds and has a 30 second cooldown, with Berserk lasting 15 seconds this gives you a 9 second window in which to pool energy for the Berserk, this is essentially perfect because Berserk is on the GCD so you'll get to 100 energy before you can use another ability, though with lag and the unlikelyhood that you'll be at 0 before this 9 second period, you're better off Berserking at 7 or 8 seconds after TF wears off (17-16 seconds left on the TF Cooldown is a handy point). Ideally, you should refresh Mangle and Rake during the TF Bonus, but don't clip Rake in order to do so, likely you can delay the activation of TF (or Berserk, which will also delay TF) but that may be worse than simply having Rake downtime.

Jheusse: The DPE from Rake will never be better than Shred without the DoT tics, I don't know how you think that's even possible at your gear level (not just mechanically, but experience wise you should know better!) When people are talking about "should we be using Rake" right now, we mean "should we be using Rake at all" since with high Armor Penetration, Shred easily passes Rake in terms of raw DPE.

In terms of priority: SR, Mangle, Rake, Rip. It's not just ok to clip SR, but also Mangle, and I recommend clipping them infact to prevent unnecessary downtime due to lag/misses. Never clip Rake, really no point in clipping it anyway. Rip can be clipped in various circumstances like at <6 seconds left with 5cp and nearly full energy, or (and I recommend doing this) when about to switch off of a Boss for a while (Razorscale taking off, Sapphiron frost breath, Heigan dance phase, Yogg Brain, etc.)

Thank you Murna for this valuable thread. Using the info from your post, I am able to get my kitty dps up to 2.7k on 5 man heroic trial on my first day as a kitty.

My question is, what is the stat priority for haste and crit? Which is more important and why? What is their importance in relation to the other major kitty stats?

Thank you.

Haste has two primary functions: it increases your white damage directly, and increases the likelihood that you will get an omen of clarity proc.

Crit has the chance to improve every single source of damage you have save rake, and improves your combo point generation.

In general, haste is better at higher gear levels because of superior armor pen (which helps the white attacks quite a bit) and because your OoC will do more damage potentially, especially if you are optimally using OoC. Crit is better at earlier levels due to the value of having smoother combo point generation and doing more damage easily without optimal management. Both are second-tier stats behind agility and armor pen, and are often considered worse than hit or expertise if you're below the cap.

Neither should be directly geared or enchanted for.

Was wondering was the actual core benefit of making the transition of pure AGI to ArP would be. As of right now I have been through numerous stat mock-ups and could never find somethign that would be so significant it would be worth sticking too.

I've gone from semi AGI ( 1100-ish ) / Arp ( 250-ish ) to full Arp ( 710 ) back to full AGI ( 1523 - 2300+ with procs ).

Now with that in mind I went in to Twins 25 and found myself leaving with [Death's Verdict]. With this insane amount of basically free agility I decided to change to full ArP .. paired with the [Banner of Victory] I was sitting at around 710 passive and assumed my dps would increase noticeably.

Sadly it did not, I tweaked my rotation to see if that was the problem .. but nope, nothing I did could justify me switching to arp. After frustratingly spending a terrible amount of pennies on the AH I decided to go against what every guide I had read said and went back to my usual full AGI and use [Death's Verdict] + [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]. Stupid right ? Nah not for me, sitting at self buffed 1523 AGI / 53.36% crit chance normally or at 3037 AGI / 71.53% crit chance fully proc'd I noticed a vast improvement of DPS over my full arp ( Without grim toll ).

With all that being said, my question would be .. why is this ? Why in my case is it .. or why does it seem to be more beneficial to be in full AGI ? Other cats in my guild are fully arp'd and swear blind it destroys their old AGI days. ( Keeping in mind my passive arp far surpassed their arp ) Am I doing something terribly wrong while switching to ArP, would I need to mix it up with [Grim Toll] or why am I seemingly better off with full AGI ? Also, I was told crit is rather pointless after 60% .. but from what I've noticed. . the more the merrier to be quite frank.

My stats while fully proc'd in AGI -> http://i31.tinypic.com/24fck6w.png ( Sorry that's it's small )
And yes that's mongoose on my wep, am in the middle of testing ;/

Short version would be basically, In what way would going 710 passive arp benefit over my 71% Crit / 12107 AP in full agi ?

Plank, it's really dependent on the fight and statistical value more than anything. But just a quick note - you should make sure you understand that you're trading 710 armor pen not for 71% crit, but for whatever that 710 armor pen - agility would provide. The only place that most people give up agility for armor pen is on the trinkets and gems, meaning that you're probably talking about a 300-400 agility difference.

Now, where this can make a big difference is in the rotation; higher crit means more likely, smoother uptimes and higher FBs.

Crit isn't pointless after 60%. After 60% crit becomes less valuable because you will soon be overflowing in CPs and you won't get as much a benefit, but crit is going to be valuable until you hit the glancing cap, which is something like 75%.

Really, without understanding what you're comparing it's impossible to say. Are you talking about raid buffed? About practice on dummies? Are you talking a 10 man fight or 25? Which fight? It all really matters.

My excuses for being unclear.

With my 'tests' I was referring to Ignis and XT hardmode 25 man. 2 weeks on the trot I had tried with different set ups and dps was always around the same area. I am aware I am trading approx 400 Arp in gems and 80 in trinket for approx 400 agi in gems and 90 + 350 proc in trinket, but from what I had heard, passing the magic number of 250-ish passive arp and gemming for full arp would make a world of difference. But seemingly on the 2 bosses I had tested it was far less effective than AGI stack. I'm just at a loss as I'm positive Arp is the way to go .. but baffled as to why it is not working for me.

Thanks for a great summary. This is very helpful. I do have a couple minor corrections you may want to make to this sentence:

"Generally I hardly advice you to use RAWR or Toskk's DPSGearMethod. The value of every stat depends on the rest of your gear."

I believe that you meant to say "heartily" rather than "hardly." Also, advise is misspelled.