Some theories, none confirmed:

1. In the FbN post there's a graph that shows variance between a ArP and AGI gearing. The ArP gearing shows a tighter cone of possibilities, while the AGI line shows a much wider cone, including dps sim results above the ArP. So while ArP is higher on average, it's quite possible that AGI is higher sometimes/often.

2. Frankly, the difference between AGI and ArP gearing is not huge, and overshadowed by many other variables. I'm almost beginning to question if the DPS gain is worth the loss of emergency offtanking survivability. I don't know if anyone's simulated the difference at this tier.

3. In actual boss fights, there's more target switching and time off target, as well as non-ideal play. ArP makes your dps more reliable despite cycle / startup problems, but it also increases your DPS loss when not on the target. I have no idea if it's a net gain or loss in those circumstances. OTOH, ArP increases your burst damage, which might be more important than your actual DPS on some encounters.

4. Curveball: You might not have sunder up--in which case ArP is actually worse than AGI (or was, in t8.5).

3. The FbN sim depends on you to play according to it's suggestion engine. This assumes a relatively high number of bites compared to a lot of players. This is a pretty small factor though.

Boevis:
I do know better, at least in theory. As you've deduced, I've been in on some kills and gotten some gear. I'm mainly casting about slightly to eliminate possible reasons that my dps isn't landing where it likely should be, based on observed comments of other ferals here, various feral blogs, and even what Rawr is projecting me to come out with. First option was that there had been some evolution in the priorities we use for cat DPS, second was misgearing/mis-gemming/mis-enchanting, third was raid makeup/buffs, and fourth was simple failure to execute on my part/terribad.

So I'm not off on the DPS rotation and FbN's recommendations. I'm still Agi-gemmed since much of my cat gear is bear shared, and will be until I can truly separate them, but my gear is appropriate if not BiS. My raid configs are usually well set up, so I guess it comes down to execution on my part, noting that my keyboard agility is lacking and DPS often gives way to situational awareness, especially since I glance down at the keys and occasionally click my finishers like Rip.

So for example while I could excuse only 6400 dps on Hodir with "I was avoiding the constant icicles too much to live in spotlights, dead dps does no dps" I still wonder if I'm hitting the limits of my physical coordination and situational awareness. Ferals tend to top charts on a lot of Uld fights, but I can almost never catch the two rogues in my raid unless I have a good night on Vezax, and a fury warrior often tops me. I will at some point drop into the WWS thread, though the likely result is "dude you're terribad".

Anyway, to contribute usefully to the discussion, I agree with the clipping of Rip on cases like the brain and razorscale, the opposite direction is times like XT-002 just as he says "so tired" I usually try to cap my points and Savage Roar before the heart drops so I can burst as hard as possible early in the heart phase. Similarly the tentacles in the brain room provide quick combo points same way. Actually I do that on trash that's about to die too, who doesn't?

Cat notes in Ulduar, many of them I'm sure common knowledge:
1- Cat Feral Charge is almost tailor-made for getting into position on Yogg-Saron's Brain, I had too many headaches groping for good positioning for shreds, charge is perfect.
2- If using the "drag guardians to the door" method on Yogg, it's often not a good idea to Rip or the mob dies too fast.
3- I end up with a lot more mangles on Mim because he's constantly turning to face me, I mangle as I run through him.
4- Laser barrage is the best time to Berserk on Mim, the only time the bastard holds still
5- I prefer to Berserk while standing on a snowdrift right after Flash Freeze
6- On Freya I open the fight with hitting her with Rake a few times to get to 5CP as fast/cheaply as possible so I can start the add waves with a 5 point Roar up.
7- Auriaya I waver between continually single target dps-ing her (mangling since I'm at her feet) and working in swipe spam for the swarm adds. On the similar situation on Kologarn I stay single target.
8- For a feral cat, Vezax is Patchwerk reincarnated as a crayfish. My best night on him I think was 6100.

Are the dps values of 2xT9 and 4xT9 out there? Is 2xT8 + 2xT9 the way to go even considering ilvl258 T9?

Another question i want to ask since i'm in that situation now is: Was any study made already to determine which 2xT8 and 2xT9 items to take or if that is the case, which 4xT9 to take?

While the 2pT8 bonus is good it's not good enough to get past ilvl 245 items, much less 258. If you disagree, you can check out an analysis of what you lose least at the FBN thread.

Im not sure if this is the best place to ask this question, we did heroic 25 man ToC last night and obviously getting those friggin' snowbolts off healers and casters is a larger priority than in normal mode.

The problem I have is finding behind the snowbolts. Sometimes it seems I am standing right behind my fellow raider and can hit it with mangle or rake but can't get in any shreds because 'I must be behind target.'

Anyone else getting similar kinds of problems? Is the hit area really particular? Is it even worth trying to shred or just mangle it up?

Any tips on dpsing those little shits would be very helpful.

A bit about this: the Yogg brain is confusing to get behind because each brain room seems to be in the same "place" for you as you go down, but they're actually arrayed around the brain at 120 degree intervals. This means that (because of the facing of the brain) you will always be able to shred if you run right up to the brain after Icecrown or Stormwind, but you will have to go behind the brain to shred on Wyrmrest (this is important if you used FC on a tentacle and it's not up to use on the brain).

You can just remember that the room that's the biggest pain in the ass (Wyrmrest) has the brain positioning that's the biggest pain in the ass (you have to run behind it).

Sadly I feral charge in then run around trying to find my shred point instead of just staying where the charge is, never quite realized kitty charge set us up behind target /failme

Actually in one of the portals (can't recall which one) Feral Charge does not put us right behind the brain. You have to strafe a little bit around to actually be able to shred.

Just shred the brain from the south. Use your minimap. And you can save feral charge for more important work in the tentacle´s rooms.

You can just dps from behind and jump infront when she does sonic cast.

So this is the "for dummies thread"...

im going to ask a dumb question (will seem dumb to those who already know the answer)

Through reading some of the posts in this thread i've gathered that mangle increases the damage of bleeds that are already on the target?

So for instance if you put up a 5 cp rip without mangle on the target, and then afterwards you add in mangle, it will buff the subsequent ticks of rip?




Note that my main is a warlock and with dot buffers for warlocks you have to add the buffer first, then apply the dot, as the dot doesnt get modified if its already on the target when the buffer lands.

I've rerolled druid and am really liking cat dps so far.

I was wondering if anyone had done any of the math around the possible armor pen nerf coming in 3.2.2 and how it will directly affect cat gearing choices and dps. My druid is not at the gear level yet to worry about it, but very likely will be by 3.2.2.

It's still an amazing stat when you get a lot of it. The ArP Cap becomes 1400, so you need 735 + Mjolnir, or 788 + Grim Toll to soft-cap it, and probably shouldn't gem it at all unless it puts you over 500 + trinket. The point at which you drop the trinkets and go for strait ArP is around 1k ArP.

The snobolds aren't automatically facing the same way as the person they're sitting on is; they're always facing the person that has top threat on them. So don't look at the person they're sitting on, look at the threat meter and you can usually find the proper side to DPS them from (unless you're top :P ).

would that be 500+ without the trinkets or would you need 500+ AND one of the trinkets to make it worth while? i only ask cause thats the postion i'm currently in. 531 armpen (socketed), but havent been successful in acquiring either trinket so far.

@Manatee:

The mechanics are the same for warlock and for cats:

Buffs: You have to have your buffs up before you apply dots. The damage of a dot is calculated on application with all buffs up at that time.

Debuffs on the mob: They increase or enhance the dmg of every tick of the dot. They don't necessarily need to be up on application, but they should be up for every tick.

Savage Roar is a Buff and should always be up, especially before doing rake or rip. Mangle is a debuff and only needs to be up before each tick

Incorrect. Each bleed tick from anyone, be it rogue warrior or druid, checks if mangle/trauma is up and does 30% more damage if it is.

I have copied the single target spec off the first post, and have my left over point, I am wondering does putting the 1 point into Genesis affect Rip etc, if so surely 1% extra periodic damage added to that would far outway the uses suggested.

Rake and Rip are not affected by Genesis

Shame, you would think it would seeing as it says "Increases the damage and healing done by your periodic damage and healing effects by 1%"

So I've been using Rawr and loving it. One thing that I cannot seem to figure out, however, is that Rawr is consistently suggesting agi gems over arpen in all of my gear, and I can't figure out why. I'm not capped on arpen, so I don't know why this is. Perhaps I'm missing some obvious setting or something. =(

Any help would be appreciated!

ok so ive been stacking agility on all gems that i can..if i take those off and put in armpen will that armpen compensate for the agility i lost? this is confusing me..and i don't want to take jewelcrafting for something that wont make much difference..