Visualising the optimal cat rotation ingame - Page 5

NaturesVoice · 12/20/09, 4:41 PM

I'm not sure what I like best. Well seeing higher dps numbers is what I like best

I'm just like you trying to find best dps.
I understand the concept of the desynching now and it sounds solid but like you've already said, it should be an increase on a fight like Saurfang where you dps like he's a target dummy but on 99% of the other bosses, how many times is the desynching really nessesary and how many bites do you sacrifice for this theoratical increase in dps?

That's what I'm wondering atm. I also tried some other values for when to refresh Roar. At the moment it's set to 6 seconds. I tried 4,3 and 2 seconds as well. Sofar the 2 seconds has given the highest dps. You do lose some Rip uptime but the dps'ing just feels less bumpy. Also a better interaction with Tiger's Fury.

Another thing what bugs with the newer versions is that I'm getting a Shred suggestion and I do a Shred and when I'm pushing it it suddenly becomes a Mangle. After that I watched the timers on the debuffs and it is indeed correct but on such a short notice I nearly always do the Shred while I should wait 1 second for the Mangle. I know I can watch timers and get used to it but seeing as it does show, for instance, Rip and Rake refresh 3-4 seconds in advance I wonder if you could maybe give 0.5-1 sec advance notice of Mangle?
This actually looks like the problem Bkim was trying to solve. Is there a solution for it yet? I'm getting confused by 2 people trying to achieve the same thing with the same program and script language yet say they take an entirely different aproach.

RareBeast · 12/20/09, 5:32 PM

Desynching is a big issue on a lot of fights. If you blindly follow the FBN script, you can find yourself going for long periods of time with no Rip up. This can happen at any time of a fight and doesn't require a non-movement fight to be important. Granted, on the gunship fight it isn't an issue, but on almost every other fight you will be stationary often enough and long enough to get a big DPS gain out of desynching when necessary.

bkim · 12/20/09, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by NaturesVoice

I'm not sure what I like best. Well seeing higher dps numbers is what I like best

I'm just like you trying to find best dps.
I understand the concept of the desynching now and it sounds solid but like you've already said, it should be an increase on a fight like Saurfang where you dps like he's a target dummy but on 99% of the other bosses, how many times is the desynching really nessesary and how many bites do you sacrifice for this theoratical increase in dps?

That's what I'm wondering atm. I also tried some other values for when to refresh Roar. At the moment it's set to 6 seconds. I tried 4,3 and 2 seconds as well. Sofar the 2 seconds has given the highest dps. You do lose some Rip uptime but the dps'ing just feels less bumpy. Also a better interaction with Tiger's Fury.

Another thing what bugs with the newer versions is that I'm getting a Shred suggestion and I do a Shred and when I'm pushing it it suddenly becomes a Mangle. After that I watched the timers on the debuffs and it is indeed correct but on such a short notice I nearly always do the Shred while I should wait 1 second for the Mangle. I know I can watch timers and get used to it but seeing as it does show, for instance, Rip and Rake refresh 3-4 seconds in advance I wonder if you could maybe give 0.5-1 sec advance notice of Mangle?
This actually looks like the problem Bkim was trying to solve. Is there a solution for it yet? I'm getting confused by 2 people trying to achieve the same thing with the same program and script language yet say they take an entirely different aproach.

My script actually does suggest Mangle refresh 1 sec early. I will make the SR and Mangle refresh times configurable.

Elentor · 12/21/09, 12:39 AM

Wouldn't TF and Berserk suggestions be good for desynching? I imagine the script would have to do a lot of foreseeing in order for it to work, but I can see how a well-timed TF can save rip from dropping for some seconds. That or making the script is fine-tuned so that the Rip+SR time to expire calculations are used to decide when SR should be refreshed, etc.

I got a great DPS increase from Furion's changes to increase Rip up-time in my tests so far.

RareBeast · 12/21/09, 2:01 AM

The trouble with that is that you want to be using TF & Beserk as often as possible and trying to use them at certain times to desynch will put you at risk of reducing the number of times they can be used in a fight and that would thus drop DPS as well.

Furion · 12/21/09, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by NaturesVoice

I'm getting confused by 2 people trying to achieve the same thing with the same program and script language yet say they take an entirely different aproach.

Once simcraft for ferals has seen some more optimization, my script will probably not be needed anymore.

Originally Posted by Elentor

Wouldn't TF and Berserk be good for desynching?

Actually, I think that is the case. Not in a way that you wait with TF/Berserk up for 20 seconds for desynching to occur but if it's ready at the right time it might be a better replacement for early refreshing. Might be an option to explore with simcraft by setting more complex TF and SR rules.

Raikage · 12/21/09, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by chetal

Has anyone figured out a way to add a timer for the internal cooldown of trinkets as a small side window?

Such as for death's choice and runestone (both have a 45? second internal cooldown on their procs.) This is about the only thing my custom script is missing.

Define(GREATSTR 60229) //Darkmoon Card - Greatness STR
Define(GREATAGI 60233) //Darkmoon Card - Greatness AGI
Define(GRIMTOLL 60437) //Grim Toll
Define(COMET 64772) //Comet's Trail
Define(MJOLNIR 65019) //Mjolnir Runestone
Define(DARKMATTER 65024) //Dark Matter
Define(BANNER 67671) //Banner of Victory
Define(DEATHNOR 67702) //Death's Choice/Verdict Normal
Define(DEATHHC 67771) //Death's Choice/Verdict Heroic
Define(NEEDLE 71403) //Needle-Encrusted Scorpion
Define(WHISPERNOR 71401) //Whispering Fanged Skull Normal
Define(WHISPERHC 71541) //Whispering Fanged Skull Heroic

AddIcon help=cd size=small nocd=45
{
if Stance(3) # cat
{
unless BuffPresent(MJOLNIR) if BuffGain(MJOLNIR 45) Item(Trinket0Slot)
}
}

AddIcon help=cd size=small nocd=45
{
if Stance(3) # cat
{
unless BuffPresent(DEATHHC) if BuffGain(DEATHHC 45) Item(Trinket1Slot)
}
}

Based on bkim's code, I've added the procs of all the popular trinkets, simply replace "MJOLNIR" or "DEATHHC" with the desired trinket, this should give you the desired 45 sec internal cooldown on the trinkets. Notice in the code above that Mjolnir Runestone is in trinketslot 0 and Death's Choice/Verdict Heroic is in trinketslot 1.
(Credits to bkim for providing his original code)

Marb · 12/21/09, 11:57 AM

Ok im using this script for some time and i tested it on raids.
On static single target fights it is realy nice helper.
For example this is a screen from 10 man saurfang:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2m34pyd.jpg
the dps from 25man will follow after wensd, i didnt had that sript on previous icc runs.

on raids like anub25 hm where i need to do swipe and just keep the roar up it wont help a lot since it follows the single target rotation. Im not so much the script specialist but it looks like he cant follow newest trinkets neither ( i am using the fos trinket which is better than mjnolnir and deathsbringer will - which preaty like procs randomly)
On dummy i have different results most likely it is above 5k - 6k, as some other wrote it looks like the script almoust never sugest the FB strtike on target, also if you stick to script only sometimes you can rip and rake wihout having the mangle buff up on dummie. Ofcourse on raids its almoust sure that at same time will be a warrior with trauma which should help with lost of mangle but still...
On t he other hand script easly helps me to reach unbuffed on d ummy 5500 or 6k dps with minimum 5k dps which is preaty nice also.

bkim · 12/21/09, 1:16 PM

I tried the trinket proc code yesterday and had some trouble getting it to work. I don't think Ovale is suited to do this. If someone has better luck, let us know.

Brooklyn · 12/21/09, 4:51 PM

Bkim,

Testing your script on a target dummy, it suggested yellow attacks with 5cp up, rip about to fall off and a Roar Refresh needed. This happened twice. This can't be right.
Might be a target-dummy-1hp problem. Strange thing is, the dummy was 1% from the get-go and I spent 30 minutes testing.

bkim · 12/21/09, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

Bkim,

Testing your script on a target dummy, it suggested yellow attacks with 5cp up, rip about to fall off and a Roar Refresh needed. This happened twice. This can't be right.
Might be a target-dummy-1hp problem. Strange thing is, the dummy was 1% from the get-go and I spent 30 minutes testing.

The move behavior changes when your target looks like it's about to die. Use the heroic boss dummy with couple million HPs.

Torzak · 12/22/09, 12:23 AM

I added a line right before Ferocious Bite is suggested as something of a test: if Mana(more 65) Spell(SHRED)

This way, after a lucky series of clearcast procs followed by a Tiger's Fury suggestion you don't immediately have suggest to you Ferocious Bite with ~80 energy. I saw this happen and figured it had to be better to Shred some of the energy away before Biting. The 65 number isn't exactly a fine tuned number based on any sort of math other than the fact that shred requires 42 energy. So (65 - 42) = 23. That 23 remaining added with the 20 per second we gain naturally, puts you at 43 energy, which I figured after lag and what not should be more than enough to ensure a quick flow from Shred to FB. I think the 65 number could realistically be 60 and work fine, but I'm just throwing it out there as a concept.

After more thought, I started to wonder if it'd only be a better option if Rip had more than 9 secs remaining to allow for the extra global to insert the shred before bite. Curious what others think. It doesn't happen a lot on a training dummy, but with full buffs and a lot of haste it seems to happen a bit more often in real play.

Also, I looked through the documentation on Ovale and could not find anything about checking if the target was an enemy target. I have grown slightly peeved with the suggestion box appearing when I have any normal NPC in Dalaran targeted. Is there a way to prevent the suggestion box from appearing if your target is friendly or if your target is already dead without using the "Show in combat only" option?

Rooki · 12/22/09, 1:49 AM

Originally Posted by Torzak

Also, I looked through the documentation on Ovale and could not find anything about checking if the target was an enemy target. I have grown slightly peeved with the suggestion box appearing when I have any normal NPC in Dalaran targeted. Is there a way to prevent the suggestion box from appearing if your target is friendly or if your target is already dead without using the "Show in combat only" option?

There is a Hide if friendly or dead target option as well. Bottom left in the appearance options.

Edit: I'll check out your ferocious bite test as well. I've found myself in the situation you describe, hopefully the test will make things smoother.

Torzak · 12/22/09, 3:32 AM

@Rooki
Thanks, I don't know how that escaped me.

            unless BuffExpires(ROAR 6)
                {
                unless TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 8 mine=1)
                        {
                        if Mana(more 60) Spell(SHRED)
                        unless BuffPresent(BERSERK) Spell(BITE)
                        if BuffPresent(BERSERK) and Mana(less 20) Spell(BITE)
                        }

You could probably repeat the whole Rip check back to back if it makes things more efficient. One for a 9sec check and another for an 8sec check? Where if the 9sec check passes and energy is above 60 then you Shred followed by Bite. The 9secs allows the breathing room for the extra global required to shred before the bite and still fit it in with 8secs left on Rip. Then from there another Rip check for 8secs like the OP has with no energy check? I'll admit, I'm a little puzzled how to handle the 8sec Rip check.

As I understand it, the 8secs left on rip is kind of a "down to the wire" for getting that FB off. So even if you have 60+ energy, it almost seems to me you wouldn't want to Shred followed by Bite with 8 seconds left on Rip, just because that'd take you down to 6 secs left on Rip by the time your Shred and Bite are done. 6secs and no energy.

I'm not really sure how to implement it, but it does seem there are definitely occasions where you could get more DPS squeezed out by not biting at those high energy levels.

mattyl83 · 12/22/09, 11:18 AM

Not a big deal, but semi annoying when you have > 25 energy and < 40 energy and Savage roar expires and you see Tigers Fury in the box.