Visualising the optimal cat rotation ingame - Page 8

coldbear · 12/29/09, 2:26 PM

Was working on Things I got wrong � The Coldbear Report - the 3.3 update/errata to my recent How To Feral Dps Guide video when it dawned on me that we've known for a while that using Nature's Grasp while pooling energy should be a net dps/energy gain since it can proc OOC - and that this could reasonably be included in a script algorithm.

I don't see any evidence of this issue being worked in the Simulation Craft thread which leads me to believe that one of the following is true:

NG doesn't proc OOC anymore (I'm on family holidays so no can test)
or
It's such a small gain it wouldn't matter due to cooldown length

GOTW has been known to be a much more reliable OOC trigger for a while, but is only useful during sustained loss-of-melee-contact in raidfights so really shouldn't be a script concern.

If someone could enlighten me before I put out bad information to a wider audience I'd be much obliged. If you have any comments on the film script please feel free to post them on the blog or email me. Anything used will be credited appropriately.

Furion · 12/29/09, 3:20 PM

Reworked most of the script to reflect simcraft results more. However I had to do a few tweaks with the SR rules and I'm not sure wether those can be tested with simcraft. Maybe someone can help me translate.

    if ComboPoints(more 2) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 6 mine=1) and BuffExpires(ROAR 6) and 1s between BuffExpires(ROAR) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1) Spell(ROAR)
    if ComboPoints(more 2) and BuffExpires(ROAR 6) and 6s between BuffExpires(ROAR) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1) {unless TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 6 mine=1) Spell(ROAR)}

And Torzak: If you post your hole script with options I will link to it in the OP.

Torzak · 12/30/09, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by coldbear

I don't see any evidence of this issue being worked in the Simulation Craft thread which leads me to believe that one of the following is true:

NG doesn't proc OOC anymore (I'm on family holidays so no can test)
or
It's such a small gain it wouldn't matter due to cooldown length

I've just confirmed that Nature's Grasp does trigger OOC, or at least out of combat.

****
Alright, here is what I have.

Some things to note:

Most of the foundation of the script is based on Furion's work. That said, my version number should match Furion's script's version number that mine was based on.

Graphically, I have Tiger's Fury and Berserk on the left side of the main suggestion box. With some tweaking of the box sizes, it can appear very similar to FBN.

I have Tiger's Fury as part of the suggestion.

I have FFF a bit higher in priority for suggestion. 2.2b added some tweaks on the way FFF is handled. It will no longer suggest FFF when your energy bar is over 70 or when Tiger's Fury is ready and available.

I'm not allowing Rakes to consume clearcast proc. I am allowing Rip and Mangle to consume the proc, however I think I would change this with 2pc T10 being that with that set bonus, Rip would be easy to find the energy being that it would only cost 20.

I have done a few things to place a higher priority on Mangle. On one hand, this benefits your own rip, on the other, it benefits your whole raid. This mostly comes up when Rake will expire followed very closely by mangle expiring (between one to two secs). I have prevented Rake from being suggested in the event that Mangle will expire within 1 to 2sec or your energy is less than 55. This will promote higher Mangle up times in any occasion where using rake would hinder your ability to renew Mangle when it would have worn off due to a lack of energy. Both this paragraph and its related section in the script have been edited in my 2.2 release.

I have done something similar for renewing Savage Roar with 3 ("more 2") combo points in that it will refrain from suggesting to you to Savage Roar if your energy is less than 35. Because of the way Furion has scripted Savage Roar to be applied around 6 secs before it wears off, it provides plenty of time to find the right spot between those 6 and zero secs of Roar remain to find the moment where you will have more than 35 energy before you apply it. This is not a 100% prevention system, but rather a system to lessen the mangle and rake down times in any occasion where you would renew Savage Roar at or near 25 energy, leaving you with only 10 energy directly following the global of that Savage Roar renewal. This system will ensure you always have 20 energy, instead of 10, directly after you've applied Savage Roar which will only help minimize mangle or rake down times. Both this paragraph and its related section in the script have been edited in my 2.2 release.

Instead of doing the checkbox for the Arpen trinkets, I have decided to essentially lump them all together in a single buff check line. If you have Grim, Mjolnir, or the needle's proc, it will suggest to you to FB with one less second requirement on rip remain time.

I've added another Shred line in the bottom portion. As I understand it, the default priority is 3 if not otherwise stated. So if you have 70+energy and a clearcast proc, it should be more inclined to shred that proc away quickly, as by the time you've done so, you will be at 90 energy during the global of that shred.

I've also added another condition for if the opponent is about to die in 4secs and you've only got 4 combo points with less than 40 energy to just go ahead and BITE. A 4 combo point Bite when the opponent is about to die is better than using that energy toward anything else or waiting for it to pool up and then not spend those combo points at all because the target died before you could finish.

Another deviation is the BITE conditions. I have before mentioned this, but basically I've added a few checks on energy amount and if clearcast is up or not before allowing a bite. The 2.2 version adds mangle as a possibility before BITE instead of just shred and it will only suggest mangle as part of the energy dump if it will soon wear. Along with that, and also before mentioned, I have added a Tiger's Fury cd check for the purposes of biting. If Tiger's will be available to you within 5secs, it will lower the rip duration requirement down to only 8secs, down from the 10sec requirement that would normally apply.

If I have looked over something, or someone can write it more elegantly with less code, by all means. You should note, I may have not commented all of my deviations from Furion's code. I'm just kind of tinkering with it and changing things as I see something I don't like when I'm messing around on the dummy.

Small tweaks in 2.2b for the way FFF is handled. It should provide a more appropriate suggestion for when to use FFF.

Edited to better line up with Furion's 2.2 Version.

My 2.2b

Define(FFF 16857)
Define(FF 770)
Define(RIP 1079)
Define(MANGLE 33876)
Define(SHRED 5221)
Define(TIGER 5217)
Define(RAKE 59886)
Define(ROAR 52610)
Define(BITE 22568)
Define(BERSERK 50334)
Define(OMEN 16870)
Define(TRAUMA 46857)
Define(MANGLEB 33878)
Define(MJOLNIR 65019)
Define(GRIMTOLL 60437)
Define(NEEDLE 71403)

SpellInfo(RIP resetcounter=ripshreds)
SpellInfo(SHRED inccounter=ripshreds)

AddIcon help=cd size=small nocd=0 {
if Stance(3) { # cat
Spell(TIGER)
}
}

AddIcon help=cd size=small nocd=0 {
if Stance(3) { # cat
Spell(BERSERK)
}
}

AddIcon help=main
{
if Stance(3) # cat
    {
    	if ComboPoints(more 0) and BuffExpires(ROAR 1) Spell(ROAR priority=4)
	if Mana(more 35)
             {
             if ComboPoints(more 2) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 6 mine=1) and BuffExpires(ROAR 6) and less than 3s between BuffExpires(ROAR) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1) Spell(ROAR priority=4)
	if ComboPoints(more 2) and BuffExpires(ROAR 6) and less than 6s between BuffExpires(ROAR) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1 forceduration=22) {unless TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 6 mine=1) Spell(ROAR priority=4)}
             }
        if TargetDebuffPresent(RIP mine=1) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 4 mine=1) and Counter(ripshreds less 3) Spell(SHRED)
        if ComboPoints(more 4)
                {
                if TargetDeadIn(less 7) Spell(BITE priority=4)
		unless TargetDebuffPresent(RIP mine=1) Spell(RIP priority=4)
                if 5s before Spell(TIGER)
                          {
                           unless TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 8 mine=1) or BuffExpires(ROAR 8)
                                    {
                                    if {TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLE 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLEB 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(TRAUMA 1)}
                                       {
                                       if BuffPresent(OMEN) and Mana(more 25) Spell(MANGLE)
                                       if Mana(more 59) Spell(MANGLE)
                                       }
                                    if BuffPresent(OMEN) and Mana(more 25) Spell(SHRED)
                                    if Mana(more 68) Spell(SHRED)
                                    unless BuffPresent(BERSERK) Spell(BITE)
                                    if BuffPresent(BERSERK) and Mana(less 20) Spell(BITE)
                                    }
                          }
                if BuffPresent(MJOLNIR) or BuffPresent(GRIMTOLL) or BuffPresent(NEEDLE)
                          {
                           unless TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 9 mine=1) or BuffExpires(ROAR 8)
                                            {
                                            if {TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLE 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLEB 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(TRAUMA 1)}
                                               {
                                               if BuffPresent(OMEN) and Mana(more 25) Spell(MANGLE)
                                               if Mana(more 59) Spell(MANGLE)
                                               }
                                            if BuffPresent(OMEN) and Mana(more 25) Spell(SHRED)
                                            if Mana(more 68) Spell(SHRED)
                                            unless BuffPresent(BERSERK) Spell(BITE)
                                            if BuffPresent(BERSERK) and Mana(less 20) Spell(BITE)
                                            }
                          }
                unless TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 10 mine=1) or BuffExpires(ROAR 8)
	                        {
                                if {TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLE 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLEB 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(TRAUMA 1)}
                                   {
                                   if BuffPresent(OMEN) and Mana(more 25) Spell(MANGLE)
                                   if Mana(more 59) Spell(MANGLE)
                                   }
                                if BuffPresent(OMEN) and Mana(more 25) Spell(SHRED)
                                if Mana(more 68) Spell(SHRED)
                                unless BuffPresent(BERSERK) Spell(BITE)
                                if BuffPresent(BERSERK) and Mana(less 20) Spell(BITE)
                                }
                }
        if {TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLE 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLEB 1) and TargetDebuffExpires(TRAUMA 1)} {Spell(MANGLE)}
        if Mana(more 55)
                 unless BuffPresent(OMEN)
                      {
                      unless ComboPoints(more 4) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 1 mine=1) {if TargetDebuffExpires(RAKE 0 mine=1) {unless TargetDeadIn(less 9) Spell(RAKE)}}
                      }
        unless {TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLE 2) and TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLEB 2) and TargetDebuffExpires(TRAUMA 2)}
                unless BuffPresent(OMEN)
                     {
                     unless ComboPoints(more 4) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 2 mine=1) {if TargetDebuffExpires(RAKE 0 mine=1) {unless TargetDeadIn(less 9) Spell(RAKE)}}
                     }
        unless 1s before Spell(TIGER)
                {
                if Mana(less 70)
                    {
                    if {TargetDebuffExpires(FFF 15) and TargetDebuffExpires(FF 15)} Spell(FFF priority=2)
                    }
                }
        if {TargetDebuffPresent(MANGLE) or TargetDebuffPresent(MANGLEB) or TargetDebuffPresent(TRAUMA)}
                {
                if ComboPoints(less 5) Spell(SHRED priority=2)
                unless ComboPoints(more 4) {if BuffPresent(OMEN) Spell(SHRED priority=2)}
                if BuffPresent(BERSERK) Spell(SHRED priority=2)
                if Mana(more 70) Spell(SHRED priority=2)
                if Mana(more 70) and BuffPresent(OMEN) Spell(SHRED)
                if TargetDeadIn(less 4) and ComboPoints(more 3) and Mana(less 40) Spell(BITE)
                if TargetDeadIn(less 9) Spell(SHRED)
                 }
        unless BuffPresent(BERSERK) 
                {
                unless BuffPresent(OMEN) if Mana(less 36) Spell(TIGER)
                }
    }
}

Furion · 12/30/09, 6:47 AM

Thanks for your modifications Torzak. I really think your ideas are quite interesting and should be helpful for me and others wanting to modify the script so I'll link to your post in the OP. However it's hard to tell which of your modifications will actually improve our dps on average.

So, for now, I'll just go ahead and try to describe what my main problem is:
How to make rational choices if we can't test the results easily and reliably (which is especially true if the dps difference is very small)?

The best way to currently test things seem to be using simcraft. I think simcraft is really good for testings some things, but not so good for testing others. Simcraft seems to overestimate rip uptime (if we follow the logic currently used in sc strictly we will probably not reach ~90% rip uptime reliably ingame from my limited experience and this is despite my very low latency)
On top there is the problem of converting simcraft priority lists to ovale and vice versa which both have their own limitations.

For example if we want to increase actual rip uptime ingame to, say 90%, we don't want to do it in a way that is a net dps loss. If you refresh SR too early you loose energy and FBs which may or may not be worth it depending how many extra rip ticks you actually squeeze in. So the best answer might as well be to live with a lower average rip uptime. I just can't tell as I don't have reliable sources on some of these questions. And playing around with the script is way too unreliable due to the small sample size and it is prone to error from our own bias.

This is not the kind of discussion I wanted to start here but I'm just not sure how to continue improving the script otherwise.

Edit: There is still some work to do, of course. I think I found a reason for low rip uptime in my script it's a problem with energy pooling I will fix it today

Elentor · 12/30/09, 8:06 AM

Originally Posted by Furion

Thanks for your modifications Torzak. I really think your ideas are quite interesting and should be helpful for me and others wanting to modify the script so I'll link to your post in the OP. However it's hard to tell which of your modifications will actually improve our dps on average.

So, for now, I'll just go ahead and try to describe what my main problem is:
How to make rational choices if we can't test the results easily and reliably (which is especially true if the dps difference is very small)?

The best way to currently test things seem to be using simcraft. I think simcraft is really good for testings some things, but not so good for testing others. Simcraft seems to overestimate rip uptime (if we follow the logic currently used in sc strictly we will probably not reach ~90% rip uptime reliably ingame from my limited experience and this is despite my very low latency)
On top there is the problem of converting simcraft priority lists to ovale and vice versa which both have their own limitations.

For example if we want to increase actual rip uptime ingame to, say 90%, we don't want to do it in a way that is a net dps loss. If you refresh SR too early you loose energy and FBs which may or may not be worth it depending how many extra rip ticks you actually squeeze in. So the best answer might as well be to live with a lower average rip uptime. I just can't tell as I don't have reliable sources on some of these questions. And playing around with the script is way too unreliable due to the small sample size and it is prone to error from our own bias.

This is not the kind of discussion I wanted to start here but I'm just not sure how to continue improving the script otherwise.

Edit: There is still some work to do, of course. I think I found a reason for low rip uptime in my script it's a problem with energy pooling I will fix it today

Following the script religiously represents a 8-10% DPS loss on not following it for me though on a Heroic Dummy (5200 vs 5600-5700 dps). Of course my samples aren't in the order of thousands, but I do it every day and the results have been consistent. When I don't follow the script, I focus entirely on SR, Rip and Rake uptime, and rarely do I squeeze a FB. I have Mjolnir and 740 ArPen with Hearty Rhino. Even with more FBs, it seems the Rip downtime takes a lot of the DPS.

Anyway, from Ovale's creator in SA, posted just some minutes ago:

Originally Posted by Esside

Done in 3.3.6.

I also added some parameters to SpellInfo that may help to de-synchronizing SR and RIP. As I have no high level druid and as the PTR are obviously down, I can't test this. I copy/paste the changelog:

- added glyph and talent options to SpellInfo, which allows to modify spell infos based on a glyph spell id or a talent id
- added forceduration to SpellInfo to tell Ovale to ignore the aura duration given by WoW and use its own duration (used for Glyph of Shred for example)
- added addduration and addcd to SpellInfo to use in combination with glyph and talent parameter: allows to modify previous values (e.g. Glyph of Rip add 4s to the duration of Rip)
- see Druid default script for an example (note that this script does not use the information anyway)

Furion · 12/30/09, 8:33 AM

Those updates for ovale seem pretty nice. However I still can't think of a way for ovale to ensure that you shred 3 times during each rip cycle.

Part of the rip downtime might stem from not pooling energy right. I'll update the OP however those are probably bandaid fixes until I have some time to play around with the newest version.
Also rip/rake will always be favoured on dummy due to missing sunder armor (probably not by the margin you are claiming). But feel free to suggest better rules(not necessarily in ovale language). Just telling me you concentrate on those things won't help me with the script much.

Elentor · 12/30/09, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by Furion

Those updates for ovale seem pretty nice. However I still can't think of a way for ovale to ensure that you shred 3 times during each rip cycle.

Part of the rip downtime might stem from not pooling energy right. I'll update the OP however those are probably bandaid fixes until I have some time to play around with the newest version.
Also rip will always be favoured on dummy due to missing sunder armor (probably not by the margin you are claiming). But feel free to suggest better Rip refreshing rules (not necessarily in ovale language).

You're right about sunder armor, but the margin isn't a lie, just my own experience. Like I said, it's highly subjective to RNG.

And I agree the main problem with the script (not just yours) is the lack of energy pooling.

Torzak · 12/30/09, 9:18 AM

**Revisiting Nature's Grasp:
I don't think it procs clearcast while in combat. I've just spent aprox 15mins on a dummy trying it.

**I've grown skeptical of one portion of my own code; I've actually got a question about it.

unless {TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLE 1) or TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLEB 1) or TargetDebuffExpires(TRAUMA 1)} and Mana(more 40)

This is saying that unless any variation of the Mangle debuff will wear off in 2 secs, don't continue. The "and" part is where I am a little confused. Would the "unless" still apply to the Mana(more 40)? Is this saying Unless Mangle wears off in 2secs and unless energy is more than 40?

Is it maybe better written like this:

unless {TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLE 1) or TargetDebuffExpires(MANGLEB 1) or TargetDebuffExpires(TRAUMA 1) or Mana(less 40)}

This is in reference to the ComboPoint(more 2) portion for Renewing Savage Roar.
This second way you ensure you have aprox 35 energy directly after the Savage Roar to renew a mangle or rake. I can't help but feel the way I've got it in my previous post is perhaps not what I want, but maybe it is.

**Anyway, I did change my Tiger's Fury portion with what I'm working on to the following:

unless BuffPresent(BERSERK) 
                {
                unless BuffPresent(OMEN) if Mana(less 40) Spell(TIGER)
                }

I will edit my above to reflect this. This prevents a suggestion of Tiger's Fury while clearcast is up. Before it would suggest Tiger's Fury below 40 energy with a clearcast proc up which would result in a lot of fast lighting Shreds trying to not waste energy that ultimately you really couldn't entirely prevent. 35 Energy + Tiger's Fury with a clear cast proc currently up would result in 95 Energy followed by a shred which results in ~15 energy lost during the global of the shred.

Furion · 12/30/09, 10:01 AM

If there is a way in the new ovale version to compare the current duration of the forced 22 seconds rip with the current duration of the actual rip debuff on the target we could easily make the script properly suggest shred to use glyph of shred charges. However this didn't seem to work in my tests so far. I tried something like this, maybe someone else has an idea:

Define(RIP 1079 forceduration=1 duration=22)
Define(REALRIP 1079 forceduration=0)

if 1s between TargetDebuffExpires(REALRIP mine=1) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1) Spell(SHRED)

Allev · 12/30/09, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by coldbear

I don't see any evidence of this issue being worked in the Simulation Craft

Yes, there's a variety of things you can do to trigger OoC, and you can use NG in cat form. I simply haven't gotten around to adding that, since (1) I'm not sure SC supports it, (2) it's not something I've adapted to my play, and (3) there are bigger fish to fry with the feral profile.

Originally Posted by Torzak

Alright, here is what I have.

Some great ideas there, although they're pretty nitpicky. If you haven't tested them in SC, I would do that before accepting them. Many times, small tweaks like that are relevant rarely enough that they're more confusing than effective.

Originally Posted by Elentor

Following the script religiously represents a 8-10% DPS loss on not following it for me though on a Heroic Dummy (5200 vs 5600-5700 dps).

You aren't raid-buffed when fighting a dummy. Specifically, the lack of sunders will skew all of your armor-negated attacks downward. Against a dummy, emphasizing bleeds wins.

Not that the scripts represent perfect play-- however, they do a pretty good job of "typical" play.

Not that I think FBs are worthwhile except in exceptional circumstances (beyond what the profiles say), since they're such a small gain over simply attacking.

Dronus86 · 12/30/09, 12:21 PM

Perhaps Ovale is unhappy with two different sets of rules applied to the same ID (despite being defined differently). You could try to utilize SpellAddBuff to add an invisible buff to yourself, and give it an arbitrary identifier, then use forceduration on that buff. Or maybe the syntax is incorrect; Ovale documentation states you can supply the duration as a parameter to forceduration, maybe that's the preferred method. I'd try it myself, but I'm at work.

Sidoine · 12/30/09, 12:23 PM

Please ignore 3.3.6, I made a 3.3.7 that may be easier to use. I changed the syntax of Ns between X and Y to a more explicit "more than Ns between X and Y" or "less than Ns between X and Y", and moved foreceduration from SpellInfo to TargetDebuffExpires et alt.

I don't have a druid character so I may not really understand what you need, but with 3.3.7 you could write:

if more than 1s between TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1 forceduration=22) Spell(SHRED)

But I realize that it may looks a bit silly to have to write something as complicated as that.

Na8 · 12/30/09, 12:28 PM

New to cat dps on my druid but I was curious about this add on Ovale and the code input do I have to change the code in order for this add on to work properly, do I change the code in order to maximize dps, is it an add on that tells you what spell to hit next based on situation and combo points, I am downloading it now just curious why everyone is inputing a code into it?

Torzak · 12/30/09, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sidoine

I don't have a druid character so I may not really understand what you need, but with 3.3.7 you could write:

if more than 1s between TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1 forceduration=22) Spell(SHRED)

But I realize that it may looks a bit silly to have to write something as complicated as that.

I have just tried this as more or less a one line script, and it doesn't appear to work. I am using Mangle >> Rip without worry of how many combo points for the purpose of testing. And it is not suggesting shred.

What needs to happen, is a check of some sort to attempt to get a full 22seconds out of Rip. When Rip is first applied it's duration is 16seconds. Each Shred adds 2secs. At most three shreds can buff the duration per Rip for a total of 6 extra seconds.

We need what essentially amounts to a timer of 22secs to kick off every time we Rip our target and for that timer to be compared to the current duration of Rip.

Order of events:
Feral Druid Rips target
22sec timer starts & actual 16 sec duration starts
20secs left on timer & 14sec left on rip
18secs left on timer & 12secs left on rip
Feral Druid Shreds Target
16secs left on timer & 12secs left on rip
Feral Druid Shreds 2nd time
14secs left on timer & 12secs left on rip
Feral Druid shreds 3rd time
12secs left on timer & 12secs left on rip

Now that the timer and the actual duration match, Shred doesn't need to be any sort of priority at all, where as when they don't match, shred needs a higher priority to ensure the most is gotten out of the rip. I'm not sure how Furion or anyone else will want to implement this into the script, but this is basically what we need.

Furion · 12/30/09, 1:10 PM

the line in the script would probably look something like this:

if TargetDebuffPresent(RIP mine=1) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP 5 mine=1) and more than 1s between TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1) and TargetDebuffExpires(RIP mine=1 forceduration=22) Spell(SHRED)