No, it's not. The 4-5 extra GCDs are fillers. That means that they're less effective than your 5x1 casts since otherwise you'd, mmm, do them instead. RR is just a way to reduce fillers when you want to do just 5x1.
As for the rest, increasing the healing of rejuv by 50% is terrible. Being healed for 1K a sec by JoL is terrible. DKs scoring 1.4K heals from iLotP is terrible.
I have two healed BQL and Putricide HC, tyvm. RR has its usages, and if you don't use it for aura fights in 10m, you probably won't ever use it.
here we go again...
The point is not to JUST use you're 5>1 rotation where in most, if not every heroic it is not enough. Correct use of " The fillers "as you call are in essence what will differentiate an awesome resto druid from an above average one.
Did i say that 5>1 is more than often not enough to keep everyone alive? Oh and that every downy can keep it going?
Moving on, the glyph of rejuventation is definitly not the best one as you found out for BQL using glyph of rebirth is handy giving the very often times (especialy late into the fight) people get gibed once accepting a BR.
Glyph of innervate is also nice if you want to give it to an arcane mage or another healer.
Since the Disc priest in my guild can bubble the rezed person 95% of the time so he doesnt get gibed, the glyph of rejuvenation works for me especialy during a bad air phase where often ppl dip bellow 50%.
I wouldnt ever RR unless its saurfang or dreamwalker. Agalon 25 perhaps if there is no holy paladins and ur assigned to tanks. Happened once.
Anyway, You're definitly not the better resto druid in you're guild. No wonder you got subbed out for most of the icc 25 HC you were in. I can see what you wrote here definitly shows in you're performance. My advice to you is use every GCD, to cast a heal. Val'anyr will only carry you so far.
The last few posts have been very opinionated and make contradicting claims regarding the marginal healing made available by either glyphing RR or not. It's not a matter of opinion, though. Plug your stats into TreeCalcs. Evaluate the healing increase from Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation, and compare it to the healing you could put out by using the lost GCDs on other spells. It's a simple evaluation of opportunity cost of the lost GCDs.
The actual question won't be whether or not you can pump out more healing in 10 man with or without RR. It'll be (if RR is an HPS increase in your current gear setup) whether the extra healing is worth it, considering the tight 5x1 rotation that is required at the haste cap and thus, the reduction in flexibility while keeping up the rotation.
Whether the damage profile makes RR an attractive choice is also an open question on a fight by fight basis, and whether Rejuv falling off a portion of the raid while you do something else is a big deal or not will be one of the major factors to be considered.
If you're going to post about how great or awful RR is in 10 mans, back it up with numbers or logs at the very least. Claims of using it to down this or that hard mode boss are anecdotal and unconvincing.
The main point against RR that I can see is that it limits your ability to blanket the raid for random damage (unlike aura damage) to set up a nourish/SM while doing other things. This ability matters less if you have a disc priest or a holy paladin, for instance.
I see what you are saying about blanketing the raid in 10m, but its really easy to do. When I am in my 10m i always have hots on the tanks as well as blanketing the raid. I normally 2 heal it with a holy paladin and have no trouble with anything. I've been using RR of glyph of rejuv since I had around 700 haste and have noticed that it is better even with the 6s reduced duration. I also have my unit frames show me which of my raid members have hots on the so I know who has what. I do tend to save WG for the melee because I'm normally melee stacked but that doesn't mean I only use WG on them. Anyways I don't even know why you are talking about 10m since it is much easier to deal with then 25m, mind you my guild is still progressing to kill sindragosa and LK on 25m but still. I am in total support of RR as soon as you get your GCD down to the 1s or get 4 set t10, which ever comes first.
The last few posts have been very opinionated and make contradicting claims regarding the marginal healing made available by either glyphing RR or not. It's not a matter of opinion, though. Plug your stats into TreeCalcs. Evaluate the healing increase from Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation, and compare it to the healing you could put out by using the lost GCDs on other spells. It's a simple evaluation of opportunity cost of the lost GCDs.
The actual question won't be whether or not you can pump out more healing in 10 man with or without RR. It'll be (if RR is an HPS increase in your current gear setup) whether the extra healing is worth it, considering the tight 5x1 rotation that is required at the haste cap and thus, the reduction in flexibility while keeping up the rotation.
Whether the damage profile makes RR an attractive choice is also an open question on a fight by fight basis, and whether Rejuv falling off a portion of the raid while you do something else is a big deal or not will be one of the major factors to be considered.
If you're going to post about how great or awful RR is in 10 mans, back it up with numbers or logs at the very least. Claims of using it to down this or that hard mode boss are anecdotal and unconvincing.
It's not really a spreadsheet solvable issue though - the effects of RR are not on raw HPS.
The point is that for fights when you're doing 95% 5x1, increasing the throughput of rejuv while making them shorter will cause your healing to be more evenly spread out. Say you do BQL and don't glyph RR. After you did 2 5x1 you have 5 gcds open. What are you doing with them? Yes, the occasional SM is nice, but you can also do that with RR, you just need to skip a target which is easy to do.
Originally Posted by Amoremio
...
Ok, click-click hero. Thanks for the analysis about how we run healing setups.
After you did 2 5x1 you have 5 gcds open. What are you doing with them?
Are you for real? There should be plenty of raid damage going around for you to make use of the 5 gcd's left.
Take fights like BQl, sindragosa, PP even festergut sometimes. All heroic ofc.
Regrowth the ranged who do not benefit from JOL, lifeloom the tanks, SW, nourish if you must. The point is that these fillers will outperform the RR glyph and are more than almost necessary to keep the raid at a healthy HP level.
5x1 just doesnt cut it on certain end game encounters. And there is much more to a druid than keeping up this simple rotatation. In the end it comes down to keeping the 5x1 going AND using every extra GCD to add a regrowth to someone or spot heal to buffer the incoming expected damage and prevent spikes.
And wow..skipping targets is stupid concidering how easy it is to keep 5>1 up with or without RR and most 25 setups consist of 2x resto druid. Each taking 3 groups, skipping and overlaping with his/hers hots is terribly inefficient.
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
Ok, click-click hero. Thanks for the analysis about how we run healing setups.
Are you for real? There should be plenty of raid damage going around for you to make use of the 5 gcd's left.
Take fights like BQl, sindragosa, PP even festergut sometimes. All heroic ofc.
Regrowth the ranged who do not benefit from JOL, lifeloom the tanks, SW, nourish if you must. The point is that these fillers will outperform the RR glyph and are more than almost necessary to keep the raid at a healthy HP level.
5x1 just doesnt cut it on certain end game encounters. And there is much more to a druid than keeping up this simple rotatation. In the end it comes down to keeping the 5x1 going AND using every extra GCD to add a regrowth to someone or spot heal to buffer the incoming expected damage and prevent spikes.
And wow..skipping targets is stupid concidering how easy it is to keep 5>1 up with or without RR and most 25 setups consist of 2x resto druid. Each taking 3 groups, skipping and overlaping with his/hers hots is terribly inefficient.
not really sure what this means.
Maybe if the spell doing 70% of your healing did 50% more per target 5x1 would be enough.
Skipping tanks is more than viable. If you think your 3s ticking hot is what's keeping them up, think again. Try it, it's fun.
No one mentioned 25m either.
Maybe if the spell doing 70% of your healing did 50% more per target 5x1 would be enough.
Skipping tanks is more than viable. If you think your 3s ticking hot is what's keeping them up, think again.
No one mentioned 25m either.
Yes you are right, lets all skip the tanks so if they dip or something happens like :holy paladin gets tombed in sindragosa we will all have to waste a GCD putting a rejuv up on him to be able to swiftmend missing out on some serious spot heal that could've happend 2 seconds earlier.
The extra heals from RR are more than often overheals and to wrap this up: Innefficient.
You seem to be the type of person who only worries about a 5>1 rotation when that is just half way there. Once you learn to keep the 5>1 rotation AND use fillers each GCD for the 4-5 extra GCD's you're performance will improve.
So 5x1 isn't enough, then RR is overhealing. Make up your mind here, son.
Sindragosa is pretty borderline for RR. I can see dropping it there.
Maybe you should get a WoW account before commenting on the game. If you have it, feel free to share like an armoy link so we can see your super build/glyphs.
Whenever I am raiding I am normally the only resto druid so I am always focused on blanketing the raid with sometimes rolling hots on the tanks if i can. I tend to have 1-2 holy priests doing PoM and a shaman, holy pally and a disc priest, when we are 6 healing, focusing on melee and the tanks. With me trying to blanket the raid while using RR I do have the rejuvs drop being but this does help on fights like BQL because the quick ticking of my rejuv and one of the priest blanketing shields. But my 5x1 with RR doesn't seem to fail unless I have stupid dps who think that they can stand in bad effects and expect me to heal them through it. Mind you my rejuv normally beats the holy pally in overhealing but that is ti be expected if I am blanketing the raid with it. On top of that, I never have extra GCDs that I can use like some are saying. But like I said, I'm a designated raid healer and thats all my raid leader wants me to do and I do it well.
So 5x1 isn't enough, then RR is overhealing. Make up your mind here, son.
Sindragosa is pretty borderline for RR. I can see dropping it there.
Maybe you should get a WoW account before commenting on the game. If you have it, feel free to share like an armoy link so we can see your super build/glyphs.
If you think 5>1 is enough or the best use of you're GCD's as a healer i suggest you reconsider paying for your monthly subscription to wow.
NOT using RR glyph opens to the possibility of keeping the 5>1 rotation up AND using 4-5 GCD worth of spells to either add an extra hot buffer ( regrowth) or help in the tank healing or Spot heal someone who dips without any risk of losing the 5>1 rotation i.e in BQL air phases.
Is that a hard concept to understand?
It is more efficient by quite a margin than sticking to the 5>1 with RR (that has proven to add some more overhealing to RJ )and not doing anything else which is really what you are telling everyone else who reads you're posts.
More than often 5>1 is not enough, it's the root of druid healing but only the basics. The fillers will increase you're performance and improve the raid survivability.
I choose not to display my character name in order not to get people (me) digging through logs ( you're logs) to find out how fail you actualy are when it comes to hot uptiming, efficiency and well legendary mace carrying you. But dont be fooled, I'm talking from experience. 10/12 icc 25 heroic
It could be argued that RR Glyph actually increases the efficiency of the raid's heals as a whole. Depending on the fight, positioning and damage profile, RR allows a greater health deficit to exist on non-rejuv'd targets. The priest and shammy smart heals pick up these targets with a lower likelyhood of overhealing and allow your rejuv's to continue ticking without being sniped. Non-rejuv'd targets are also candidates for t10 procs. Full coverage would negate the set completely. Regrowth on a non-rejuv'd target is still swiftmendable and by the time you may actually need to swiftmend a target perhaps a rejuv did proc on it. It isn't like a target is going to explode if it doesn't have a rejuv on it but I think we all know that.
Last response.
5x1 is the best use of a druid healing when raid healing. In 25, in a lot of fights, that is all you do (besides the occasional SM). Don't bother with pointing out the flaws in this, as that is a fact.
In 10 things are a bit trickier since we have enough GCDs to do 5x1 and then some. You can choose to do other things like LB tanks. You can glyph RR to make the 5 part 50% stronger. I never said I do 5x1 without glyph in 10m and then idle for a bit. I said I think that often you're better off cutting filters and going for the harder hitting rejuv RR gives.
Most of your statements are either opinions or straight-up false. Using words like "proven" or "always" doesn't make them any more true.
Are you bitter about the mace? Did your fictive guild deny you one? Shoot for the stars, make it 11/12. No reason at stopping as low as you did.
This is getting a little ridiculous. Glyphs, including the Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation, are meant to be cheap and switched out on a fight per fight basis, depending upon the player's healing style and the raid makeup. If you feel that your 5x1 rotation is best suited for a fight, then by all means use Rapid Rejuv. If you feel that at some point you will need to break the 5x1 rotation and possibly spot heal, then perhaps using a different glyph is more worth it.
There's been a lot of heated discussion over glyphs recently, and I have a feeling that it's simply because we have nothing left to discuss as this expansion winds down. The answer is generally going to remain the same; glyphs are not meant to be static, change them out as you see fit, and find out what makes you most comfortable healing. Unlike gems or talent points, there is not always a clear cut answer for glyphs, especially with ones that are as game changing as Rapid Rejuv.
Edit: Well, the mods got here, this discussion is obviously over anyway.
I would like to know if any of you have experience from Phase 3 of the Lich King encounter when you get transfered into Frostmourne.
I got transfered into Frostmourne as resto tonight for the first time, and truth be told I failed.
Terenas Menethil starts at pretty low HP, and according to everything I have been able to read about the encounter, I will need to heal him to full hit points. Once he reaches high hit points he will start doing additional damage and eventually he should kill the Spirit Warden.
The Spirt Warden does not really do a lot of damage as long as he is not channeling Soul Rip, however Soul Rip really deals an insane amount of damage, and resto druids really seems to have the biggest disadvantage of all the classes in the game when it comes to dealing with this ability.
Priests and Paladins will obviously dispell it, and Shamans have fairly good interupts.
We have Maul, Maim and War Stomp if we are Horde.
War Stomp did not seem to interupt the cast (maybe mine missed?). Maul missed and it does take a while to get a Maim off.
The end result is that Warstomp and Maul are on cool down and Maim is to inefficient because you cannot heal for several seconds while Teneras takes massive damage.
I tried to heal through the damage with lifebloom, regrowth, rejuv and nourish spam, but like I said - I failed.
Are resto druids really suppose to depend on shape shifting and not missing with Maul and Maim?
War Stomp will interrupt the cast. Just look for the buff on Terenas, hit War Stomp, then go back to railing him with Nourish. If you happen to miss with a War Stomp, Bear Form Bash (though I've never needed to do anything but a War Stomp.
I guess I'm just cautious - I wasn't willing to try just spamming Terenas when we were so close to our first kill.
EJ Discourages experimentation with unique play-styles/specs/glyphs
Birdemani: fric sleeps with the world and has nothing, zyla gets laid once last year and it nearly kills him
+Sporks • Bryne: I OFFERED
+Sporks • and you're like oh no i'm allergic to malan
War Stomp will interrupt the cast. Just look for the buff on Terenas, hit War Stomp, then go back to railing him with Nourish. If you happen to miss with a War Stomp, Bear Form Bash (though I've never needed to do anything but a War Stomp.
I guess I'm just cautious - I wasn't willing to try just spamming Terenas when we were so close to our first kill.
Could you clarify a bit? When the ghost is casting the spell, he puts a channel on Terenas that shows up as a debuff? I know that once the ghost gets the cast off a debuff gets put on Terenas that can be dispelled, but does the ghost put up a different debuff that you can look for?
Us Nelf Druids have a little harder. We have to hit bear form -> enrage -> bash instead of just war stomp so we need to be a little more ready to interrupt.
Players always kept themselves in flood over some assumption and never think what are the oppurtunities or relatively effective in the argumentative topic. RR glyph doesnt give you GCD or take GCD its basically do what haste does to dps , it makes your healing cycle effect faster. RR makes your RJ tick faster so it ends up dropping off faster in the meantime you ll still choose what to cast or use as the next spell wheter you have RR or not. Having 18 sec RJ won't give you a time to cast other spells its ridicilious because your RJ will tick 3s intervals so in many fights especially aura fights you will need to cast 1 more healing spell to that target next to RJ and it won't be enough.
RR will make your RJ tick at 2s or so intervals ( and you still can't assume faster hots will be overheal since overhealing assumptions depends on the fight and what's going on at that time , Hots like RJ are born to be overheal but based on logs RJ is the biggest portion of our EHPS ) so RR gives you a cycle that ticks faster which ofc drops off faster. So you should choose your next spell if its nourish , regrowth or RJ and glyph won't change or effect it beacuse assume you r keeping RJ on 10m without RR glyph you ll have around 8 9 secs to use other spells since all 10 ppl have RJ on them you use some spell on some target depending on the fight going and at the same time 10 ppl have your 3s ticking RJ on them with like 3k+.
With RR you ll have 10 ppl with RJ covered at 2s ticking intervals and with 4t10 you ll have at most 2 3 sec free time to use another spell. With RR you should choose if your next spell will be better than a RJ refresh on a dropping off target and you ll use it and at the same time you ll cover your raid with %50 more heal depending on faster ticks.
In conclusion with RR or without it are nothing about free or used GCDs its all about the efficiency of your healing spells and to use the most efficient one , either you use RR and spread your total HPS over whole raid by faster ticks or dont use RR and focus your HPS on more singular targets like nourishing or regrowthing a higher dmg taking char. 3
Either way glyph wont effect anything more than your choice , i m using RR and sometimes deciding some RJ to drop off and use LB RG or Nourish on tank if my pala has some tomb or silence issues , it ll focus my hps on spot heal more and avoid it from spreading raidwide , not using RR will make this choice permanent and i don't want that . I want to choose it through the fight.
In 25m its a little different just as Aethillen said if you use RR there ll be more targets not covered with your hots and will need some healing from other healers so spreading your total HPS wider over raid by not using RR may be sometimes wiser ofcourse by depending on your healing setup and fight mechanics.
Last edited by cyimben : 03/17/10 at 10:48 AM.
Reason: Just for addition:
By the way, a little druid specific piece of information, that apparently isn't mentioned here, that wiped our raid.
You can't switch forms after you take a portal on Dreamwalker. Haha. (I'm new here, the laughing out loud acronym isn't allowed.. is haha? )
Our druid used dash to get to a portal, with 25-30 stacks on himself on 25 Heroic. Then proceeded to freak out on vent because he couldn't switch forms and heal himself, and He'd already used his healthstone/crazy alchemist's pot. And the other healers were on the far side.
I don't know if this is a bug or intended as you can apparently cast anything else. It happened a second time to him when he tested it on the first portal so it wasn't a one time bug.
I will say a Druid is a handy third healer for this, they can't compete with a Paladin abusing GOHL mechanics on a hunter pet with GS.. but they can use wild growth or rejuv to keep the whole healer group alive in the portal, drop some fricken op 5k a second Wild growths on the raid when its getting crazy, and if they spec into Naturalist they can do some hardcore Healing Touch spam on the GS/Lust phase.
I've never had any problem switching forms inside. I have had to switch to caster form to remove the slowing debuff and had a similar dash situation the other day and was able to switch to tree/caster when inside.
I've seen the same problem, but only while in cat form (dashed like your druid). To solve the problem I just canceled the form to go back into caster form; it worked fine.
Question: I've got into a bit of debate with a guildy about druid MT healing. If glyphed for RR and nourish, I rank druids right below pally's and disc priests in terms of quality of MT healing, while he claims that shamans are well above us and druids are horrendously wasted by MT healing. While I agree our overall heals will be lower and we aren't put to best use by MT healing, I still think the raw HPS we put out by triple-hotting and nourish spamming the tank trumps shamans and holy priests and competes with disc. Any thoughts on this?
The raw HPS is comparable to other classes, but we provide essentially no other benefit besides that raw HPS. Priests and Shamans give Inspiration effects, Priest increase effective HP with shields, and Paladins are actually doing twice that HPS due to Beacon of Light.
Are the inspiration effects from the shaman really so significant to say that druids can't compete in MT healing? I would assume the increased healing from rolling LB, rejuv's, and RG's coupled with nourish spams, would more than make up for effects like those.
edit: Basically I want to know, in a purely hypothetical situation where there are no pallys or disc priests in raid and the druids are barred from raid healing, if it would be better to have a druid healer or shaman healer on the MT, which would have a better chance of keeping him alive?
Last edited by fakeyfakerson : 03/19/10 at 9:32 PM.
03/16/10, 12:35 PM
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