Resto PvE Compendium and General Discussion - Page 16

oopsminded · 03/10/10, 1:59 AM

Got bitten a couple of times in 25s; a lot of pre-hotting, no tricks on the designated first biter and some poor rng from him, all it took.

Stringar · 03/11/10, 5:47 AM

My guild is currently started on Dreamwalker HM and the other tree in my guild brought up an interesting point, but I am not well versed in math to find out if what he is saying is true.

He does NOT use RR on this fight, stating that since Nourish is his number one heal in the fight, having to recast rejuv more often uses time he could be casting Nourish.

We are both pretty well geared and close, if not at the haste cap. So for arguements sake, lets say Nourish cast is exactly 1sec, and while rejuv is instant you are still hit with the 1sec GCD.

With RR and full haste cap, rejuvs last 12s. Without RR, they last 18s. With this, ignoring all other variables like keeping LB and Regrowth up, is he right? He is basicly saying that with using RR every 6 seconds he is losing one Nourish cast to refresh rejuv.

Any number crunchers out there that can show me the math if he is correct or incorrect, and if you are in a sharing mood, why does the math work or not work?

On a different note, this other druid also mentioned to me that each stack of LB counts for 6% of the Nourish glyph bonus, basicly saying having a full 3 stack LB gives an 18% bonus to Nourish. Is this true?

And while we are on that subject as well, is it worth it to cast WG on Dreamwalker to squeeze that extra 6% out of nourish for 7sec, or is that a waste of a GCD.

I know there are a lot of questions here, but any information would be greatly appricated.

Thanks in advance

Thunderstrucker · 03/11/10, 5:56 AM

Nourish is also my #1 heal in raids. Therefore I also removed the RR glyph for the exact same reason the other Tree in your guild stated.
I also prefer to have more time spam nourish instead of having to refresh the Rejuvenation every 10 seconds.

Ektoplasme · 03/11/10, 6:24 AM

Originally Posted by Stringar

He does NOT use RR on this fight, stating that since Nourish is his number one heal in the fight, having to recast rejuv more often uses time he could be casting Nourish.

Your friend is wrong, here is the math.

The fact that you should use RR or not has nothing to do with the fact that Nourish is the number one heal on the fight. Of course it will be the number one heal because it's the one he casted the most. But you have to look at the Healing per Execution Time HpET.

1 cast of rejuv is worth 20k approximately according to Treecalcs. 1s GCD -> 20k HpET
1 cast of nourish on a 2 HoTs target is 8,5K. 1s cast time -> 8,5 HpET

Rejuv is nearly 3 times better than nourish, glyph of RR is thus a no brainer.

To explain it differently, let's say that rejuv is not a hot but an instant heal which heals for 20k with a 18s CD. This is exactly equivalent to he HoT situation for a fight like Valthiria. In this model, the Glyph of RR reduce this CD by 6s, et it's very easy to see that it is a very good glyph.

Charmath · 03/11/10, 9:41 AM

For Valithria, one needs to take the "rotation" part of the encounter into acount, since you are spending 25 secs casting and 20 seconds not (thanks for clearing up the proportions). For sake of discussion, the optimal rotation I've come up with is shown below:

Spec is 14/0/57. Glyphs: RR, LB and Nourish.

00 LB (while falling)
01 RJ (12 sec)
02 N 
03 N/RG (if previous N crits)
04 N/RG 
05 N/RG
06 N/RG
07 N/RG
08 LB (2 stack)
09 N
10 N
11 N
12 N
13 RJ
14 n
15 N
16 LB (3 stack)
17 N
18 N
19 N
20 N
21 N
22 N
23 N
24 LB (refresh)
25 RJ (refresh before portal)

The differance between Glyph of RR and without, is that with RR, you can refresh your RJ very close to entering a portal. I hope the "03-07 N/RG" is pretty self explanatory, if not, to avoid pushing back the rotation it's better to cast RG when Nature's Grace is up. Otherwise you'll lose 50% of a Nourish, which is more than a few Nourishes without the 6% boost. With a crit chance on Nourish of 50% (probably closer to 60%), there's a 97% chance your NG will proc on at least one of those Nourishes. With this rotation you have 7 instant casts, which gives you ample time to move towards portals while casting. I have not included Swiftmend or GoSwiftmend, even though it might be situationally strong, since Rawr has it shown to be a loss of hps to include in the rotation.

Edited to clear up some mistakes

• Hamlet · 03/11/10, 9:45 AM

Portals are cast every 45s and they last 20s after you click. Also, an RR is 12s duration if you cast it without NG up. There's also an issue where you have to move pretty far to get to the next portal after landing. You can refresh Lifebloom faster or use Swiftmend here.

Lamente · 03/11/10, 2:38 PM

I'd just like to confirm that this information is up to date if I could:

If you are in Tree of Life form and your Rejuv procs and jumps to a new player the 'normal' rejuv WILL NOT (WILL NOT) overwrite a procced rejuvenation. For some reason if you are in caster form you can overwrite it. But in Tree form you will not overwrite the procced Rejuv.

Go try it out yourself!

So a t10 procced rejuv can't be replaced at all - you are forced to let it fall off? Has a blue ever addressed this or mentioned if they are working on a fix?

also re: "It shows in grid": I assume this means the buff shows on a player as "rejuvenation" just like "normal" rejuv does, right? Does it use a different spell ID? I use Vuhdo, I'm just curious.

Arythorn · 03/11/10, 4:13 PM

Proc'd RJs show exactly like a normal RJ in Grid -- I can't differentiate. Two "bugs" I know of are:

a) they can't be overwritten
b) Swiftmend packs extra oomph on proc'd RJs

grimtage · 03/11/10, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

Going by one of your logs Val'anyr was actually more around the 18%(72k) mark for you not 40%(228k) and the Paladin had only slightly less than what was reported (14% instead of 15.8%). Fair enough this is only an estimate and it could be off a couple of % either way but there is just no logical way Val'anyr will be 40% of your healing no matter what World of Logs will display poorly for you.

Take the death of Skeptic as one of your targets he had RJ on him and had the occasional Val'anyr procs during Infest but did not seem to have a PW:S for the initial hit (only a 1.6k absorb). During this time you were refreshing your RJ on other raid members and hadn't caught up with his initial damage inflicted by Infest which slowly got higher and higher and then tried a SM the second he died which failed. For what it's worth your SM was available as the previous SM cast was at 20:28:22 while Infest was at 20:28:44.
You also had this same Infest on yourself with RJ/WG on you and it failed to ever recover after the initial hit and ended up killing you after 10 seconds because no direct heal was used even though you were full health before the Infest hit.

Your link is to a try where Val'anyr is reported as 40%, at the start of the tries I was not on healing Infest, the disc priest was. A few attempts later I took over that and we had the disc priest on the tank (please, don't ask, I don't want to comment on that) as for deaths with Infest on, are you certain I was casting heals at those points? We did tend to "wipe and try again" when even the slightest thing went wrong. I accept Skeptic died to it when I was, but that's my blunder, not a shortcoming in the class, though I'm guessing I wasn't really trying that hard to save him as there was deaths just before that. The death I think you're referring to for me was within a minute of Skeptic's death, which probably means I stopped healing as it was a wipe? No first deaths on heroic try was due to Infest when I was healing it. Granted these were only phase1 attempts and as you say it gets harder in phase 2, but I didn't feel it a problem to heal. Most wipes were due to the offtank dying, because as you can see we had no hunter or rogue.

@Moonzi: Seems like a pretty inane question, you should've asked that in the "Simple Q&A thread", if your haste is going to stay about the same amount, then obviously you go for the one that yields more spell power, assuming you don't have 4p9, which obviously you don't. So calculate the sp increase from getting gloves and regemming compared to getting helm, then whichever gives more sp is the answer.

Originally Posted by Arythorn

b) Swiftmend packs extra oomph on proc'd RJs

That sure explains why my Swiftmend sometimes does 2k more than I expected, I thought it was just spell power procs.

Dondochakka · 03/11/10, 10:07 PM

I too have noticed bigger SW's off proc'd rejuv's but I have also been able to differentiate them from others on grid. Probably just something to do with my setup but I have Center Text 2 setup to show incoming heals and for some reason proc's rejuv's show up different than my regular rejuv. A regular rejuv shows up around +3.1k normally(for each tick) while the proc'd rejuv only shows +19(or maybe +9, not in a raid right now so can't really check). That's the only way I've seen to be able to tell which is which. It's very nice to be able to see this since it does allow me to avoid wasting the GCD/Mana when I can't actually re-apply for a couple more seconds.

ttyl · 03/12/10, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dondochakka

While the proc'd rejuv only shows +19(or maybe +9, not in a raid right now so can't really check). That's the only way I've seen to be able to tell which is which. It's very nice to be able to see this since it does allow me to avoid wasting the GCD/Mana when I can't actually re-apply for a couple more seconds.

Oh wow. I recently played with show HoTs on incoming heals and the +9s really confused me. Interesting find. And, yeah, manually casting Rejuv on a target with a proc consumes everything (mana, ooc, etc), it just doesn't refresh duration.

Ribtip · 03/12/10, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Thunderstrucker

So, when reading this entire topic I hear the 'Revitalizing'-talent being mentioned quite a lot and the OP even set it in the talenttree for a common resto-druid and I am wondering why. I always thought revitalize isnt worth putting talents in but I see it mentioned a lot in this thread. I am wondering what someone;s motivation will be to spec it since I think it doens't add much or at least not enough to compensate the loss of, for example, living seed.

This is just my experience, so take it with a grain of salt.

The main value of revitalize is primarily in progression, where that little oomph will be the difference between a wipe and a kill.

So, using myself as an example, last night's LK10man run (click on Healing by Spell):
Alot of my role was blanketing the raid with spot Nourishes to fill in. If you look at the breakdown by spell, you'll see that Living seed accounts for only .4% of my healing.

In contrast, my rejuv blanketing over the course of the active part of the fight (~13m) was responsible for roughly :

~61 dps for our rogue (which I've had to have the math explained to me)
~100 mp5 for our 3 healers
A rage number that I still can't wrap my head around, because our tanks get smacked alot and seem to always be at cap

Just looking at the healing numbers alone, the mana gained way offset any value I added with living seed.

Now I am seeing if I can get a respec of my current talenttree. My goal is to get the Celestial Focus talent of the Balance-tree to increase my haste even more.

Questions that come forward of this situation are:
- When I would take celestial focus i keep some space to put my last talent points. Those spaces are:
a. Living Spirit
b. Living Seed
c. Revitalize

I would recommend plugging your numbers into Arawethion's treecalcs spreadsheet to see which affects your healing the most. When I did that, it made me reconsider living spirit.

Playered · 03/12/10, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by grimtage

Your link is to a try where Val'anyr is reported as 40%

Yes I did as a basis of my post but if you actually use some personal math to work it out (15% from 26.9% of your raw healing done minus what it displays as Val'anyr healing) you will notice that is highly implausible for it to do that much.

World of Logs has never been very good at tracking Val'anyr especially when you throw in other absorbs (especially other Val'anyr owners) and while it may make you all warm and fuzzy inside to see numbers at that level you should not allow that same fuzzy feeling to drift up into your brain and cloud your sense of logic. There are other parsers which tend to show a more accurate figure for your Val'anyr but that simple napkin math can give you a solid ballpark figure to check at least.

fandridis · 03/13/10, 11:11 AM

Hello guys, I read most of the debate that was going on about RR and other glyphs but it was mostly about 25mans.
So my questions is, what about a strict 10man player than wants to have the ideal spec/glyph for 10man progress?

With no mana issues I find myself between 4 glyphs: wild growth, RR, Rejuvenation, swiftmend.
I have seen people without swiftmend glyph and it seems logical if you are only into 5x1 rotation in 25man. But in 10mans there are plenty of situation that you really need to save another persons life, including the tanks... so swiftment is using a lot more. Therefore thats one for sure.
Now between the other three, which 2 would be most appropriate for 10man raiding? I know that wild growth will only hit 6 people few times, but would it be more useful overall than the few +50% rejuv ticks or hasted rejuv?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

mhenrique85 · 03/13/10, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by fandridis

Hello guys, I read most of the debate that was going on about RR and other glyphs but it was mostly about 25mans.
So my questions is, what about a strict 10man player than wants to have the ideal spec/glyph for 10man progress?

With no mana issues I find myself between 4 glyphs: wild growth, RR, Rejuvenation, swiftmend.
I have seen people without swiftmend glyph and it seems logical if you are only into 5x1 rotation in 25man. But in 10mans there are plenty of situation that you really need to save another persons life, including the tanks... so swiftment is using a lot more. Therefore thats one for sure.
Now between the other three, which 2 would be most appropriate for 10man raiding? I know that wild growth will only hit 6 people few times, but would it be more useful overall than the few +50% rejuv ticks or hasted rejuv?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

Unless you are on a heavy melee group, the 6th Wild Growth will almost hit a pet with full life, so its useless for most fights (not all fights).

For a 10 man strict druid, Swiftmend and RR Glyph are a no-brain choices, if you have 4T10, RR Glyph is a Must Have. For the 3rd glyph slot, I use Nourish Glyph by default and trade for the Reju or WG glyph, depending on fight.

As a 10 man Strict Druid, I tried to Focus on one thing, haste Cap without gemming haste or taking Celestial Focus and with 4T10 bonus. This is a very hard think to achieve. But even gemming Sp/Haste on items like [Blessed Cenarion Boots] is worth. Living Seed and Empowered Touch are worth of it.

Another thing that I want to say is that 4T10 is a good bonus for 10 man, it's about 6%-7% of my healing done on most fights, save me a lot of GCDs that I use to heal other people. I saw a lot of people defending 4T9, that is still good for some fights like Dreamwalker and Saurfang, but 4T10 is better for most fights, even on 10 man.