Okay, the stuff about mana is pretty tangential to anything important and the things people are saying above are right. I'll just try to add a few interesting things before we move on.
1) Stat Weights. Is a "good" set of stat weights one that always picks the better item of any two? I posit the following:
Well this ever lead you astray if you toss it into the Wowhead item comparator and use it to pick gear? I don't think it will. That being the case, trying to refine a "better" set of stat weights is not a high priority, as it won't matter for the rest of this expansion.
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2) Equivalence between spellpower and MP5. My response above implicitly contained the answer to the question modicumofrespite is asking. In the list of tradeoffs you can make between spellpower and regen is "give up X spellpower for Y MP5." If that's more efficient that one of the things you're already doing than, than you'll do it. If it's not, then you won't. This allows you to define an equivalence between spellpower and MP5.
For example, dropping the Ember meta for the Insightful meta trades about 25 spellpower for about 75 MP5. If, like me, you're not even choosing to make this trade, then you can conclude that the MP5:spellpower equivalence ratio is less than 1/3. If you are doing it, then you can conclude the opposite. Dropping Flaring Growth for Awakening trades around 234 spellpower for around 267 MP5 (while using a 5x1). Most people aren't doing this, so they're implicitly valuing MP5 as less than 0.88 spellpower.
The theory is: make trades of spellpower for regen in order of increasing efficiency. When you no longer need to do so because you have enough mana, the efficiency of the last tradeoff you made is your effective spellpower:MP5 equivalence ratio.
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Turn around here if you don't like math.
3) Deep theory of mana consumption. Way back in my first WoW life as a Mage, I developed some theory regarding the optimization of mana efficiency in the presence of mulitple spellcasting options: Mathematical Magery [Math] The Two-Cycle Theorem of Spell Selection
The game has changed, but the mathematical ideas haven't. Arcane Mage theorycraft is still heavily based on this concept today. I'm going to keep this short because it's so far afield, but if anyone is really interested in the question of how to perform calculations regarding mana constraints, I'd advise you to start by understanding the second linked post.
Anyway, as pointed out earlier, we don't really have to choose between throughput or mana regeneration at the moment, so therefore making an equivalent-to-spellpower-stat for resto druids is not necessary. The shaman department already tried to do this, but as you can see from the opening post this is not an easy task: [Resto] Healing Equivalency Points.
I suggest letting it go and accept that as a healer there never will be a mathematically-proof way of gearing in a similar way dps classes can.
The current version of the resto shaman HEP (healing equivalency points) program analyzes real combat logs and creates stat weights that take in to consideration glyphs, spec, personal healing style (through spells chosen and when) and combat mechanics. Stassart has done an incredible job making this tool viable for shamans. It would take some work, but it would be possible to create a similar tool for resto druids as well.
It doesn't give you a "mathematically-proof" way of gearing, but it does help to understand the personal value of each stat, set bonus, glyph and talent point.
Regarding mana usage and 5x1 rotation, not sure how everybody is floating around in endless mana land.
Perfect 5x1 costs 2395mp5. Going by my own armory, I'm standing at 638 mp5 unbuffed with 2 stacked solaces. Adding the following (figures taken from TreeCalc, rounded): Meta (85) + Kings (79) + Wisdom (109) + Divine Spirit (34) + Int (20) + MotW (39) + Replenishment (263) + Innervate (222), or a grand total of 1489mp5. This is a deficit of 906mp5, which puts OOM time at about 170 seconds with runic mana potion.
While this scenario might be a bit unrealistic, tweaking it with a small delay won't change the result by a lot. This is what druid regen and mana expenditure really look like.
Yeah, back on topic, we shouldn't exaggerate that too much. After all, most people still use Insightful for a reason. I don't think we're really in infinite-mana territory. The main point stressed in the guide is that you solve your mana problems with simple things that confer large chunks of mana (Potion, glyph, trinket, Idol, etc.) rather than scrapping for a little extra Spirit and Int on you gear. As an ultimate backstop, anyone worried about mana has the giant sledgehammer of [Idol of Awakening], so you don't have to analyze much past that (and yes, the Idol swap is surprisingly efficient).
For one, you're forgetting your Solaces (e: nope, just didn't see them before the long list). Other things:
--Mana Tide is better than it looks since it's frontloaded. Same is true for Glyph of Innervate.
--Revitalize isn't included in the sheet in any way.
--There are a lot of times where you probably don't spam from start to finish.
--Innervating yourself is okay. If you have to do it every fight, you should probably bump your regen a bit, but having the option available helps you run things pretty tightly the rest of the time.
Endless mana land is also a function of just how rigidly you stick to 5x1. I know I often forego the WG if healing looks fine or if there is not an optimal group to cast it on (since melee are pretty much taken care of by Glyphed HL and Chain heal). I have also been known to give up a GCD to use a Clearcasting proc on LB for the minor mana regain; something I picked up on Vezax.
Perfect 5x1 is the response to massive raid damage. I would say that what most people, me included, describe as 5x1 is an approximation thereof which is tailored to the specific fight and which has a bias on rolling as many RJ as possible.
For one, you're forgetting your Solaces. That alone pretty much answers your question.
I think he isn't, he said "with 2 stacked solaces".
I always regarded with suspicion the way many EJ posters toss aside the mana regen issue, as, from practical experience I knew otherwise. Not taking into account the possibility of having to battle rezz someone, shapeshift a couple of times in a fight, maybe throw a Cyclone, not hitting the first Innervate at the optimum point in the fight, having to keep LB rolling without letting it drop, and many many other variables, looks like pointless elitism to me. (pretty much like all the pvp restos that brag about not having mana issues, skipping points in Living Spirit, but glyphing Innervate.)
*what he is forgetting, I think, is OoC, and especially smart use of OoC (lifebloom cast, WG cast)
I don't know, I guess. I don't seem to run out? It's an interesting question; we should have a better idea of where our mana actually goes. I still don't see how people have mana concerns when they plan on their own Innervates. For me, it's more a question of how comfortable I can be without my own Innervate, because using it obviates the issue entirely--I could go on for minutes on end.
Case study: I did Blood Queen 10m today. For those who haven't tried her yet, you're going to find a pretty intense 5x1 spam fight (protip: the aura ticks every 2s, perfect for Rapid Rejuv). I Innervated myself to be safe, but wound up finishing with 13k mana after 4.5 minutes. Here's a log:
--Revitalize stands out (have I mentioned that Revitalize is really good?). I got over 140 MP5 from Revitalize.
--Again, 5x1 is an abbreviation. I don't know about others, but I tend not to cast WG on cooldown when there isn't actually excess damage to heal off.
--The sheet uses a 1.1s cast time for instants, which might be optimistic. Increasing the delay between spells rapidly cuts down on mana consumption (in this case, it looks like I cast around 170 Rejuvs in a 270s fight. Hard to tell how many WG's.).
Case study: I did Blood Queen 10m today. For those who haven't tried her yet, you're going to find a pretty intense 5x1 spam fight (protip: the aura ticks every 2s, perfect for Rapid Rejuv). I Innervated myself to be safe, but wound up finishing with 13k mana after 4.5 minutes. Here's a log:
--Revitalize stands out (have I mentioned that Revitalize is really good?). I got over 140 MP5 from Revitalize.
--Again, 5x1 is an abbreviation. I don't know about others, but I tend not to cast WG on cooldown when there isn't actually excess damage to heal off.
--The sheet uses a 1.1s cast time for instants, which might be optimistic. Increasing the delay between spells rapidly cuts down on mana consumption (in this case, it looks like I cast around 170 Rejuvs in a 270s fight. Hard to tell how many WG's.).
Using this query in the WoL log browser; [{"eventTypes": [6], "sourceNames": ["Hamlet"], "spellNames": ["Wild Growth", "Regrowth", "Swiftmend", "Innervate", "Abolish Poison", "Rebirth"]}] and getting counts by hand:
WG: 21 (More of a 8x1 rotation)
Rg: 4
Swiftmend: 3
Innervate: 1
Abolish Poison: 1
Rebirth: 1
I checked for Nourish and Nature's Swiftness, and didn't see either. So in an intense fight, 268s from first cast to last, about 204s was spent casting, or in a GC (at the haste cap).
Roughly 24% time spent not casting. Using Fallen Angel's mana numbers, the raw mana consumption drops to 1826, the mana deficit drops to 338 MP5, and the time till OOM climbs above 450s (7'30"). This ignores the rotation change, but dropping about 16 WG, and adding an innervate should more than make up for the "extra" spells he cast.
That's a good way of doing it. I'll have to try it with some other fights sometime to see whether that's an unusually low cast time % for me (Mal'Ganis can be very laggy on Tuesdays as well). Also, now that I think about it, I might not have had Wrath of Air.
Anyway, maybe that helps shed some light on all this. People are right that we shouldn't act like mana is to be ignored. But it still seems to me to not be a serious consideration in picking gear (except for trinkets).
I have a question about the value of 4pT9 bonus. I actually saw a spell power equivalent post on here once, but can't seem to find it anymore. I am in a position where I could drop the 4pt9 in order to pick up 106 spell power and the 2pt10 bonus-you guys think that is a good or bad trade off? Other stats would increase just a bit with the trade off.
I have a question about the value of 4pT9 bonus. I actually saw a spell power equivalent post on here once, but can't seem to find it anymore. I am in a position where I could drop the 4pt9 in order to pick up 106 spell power and the 2pt10 bonus-you guys think that is a good or bad trade off? Other stats would increase just a bit with the trade off.
4T9 is roughly a 12.5% (based on 30% crit chance and 5x1 rotation) increase to raw throughput which is worth significantly more than the trade off you are talking about. In comparison 4T10 is also worth roughly 12%. The 2 piece bonuses for T9 and T10 are hardly worth talking about. Originally I didn't want to answer this question, but considering the efforts being put to make this forum more readable these numbers should be more prominently displayed instead of sifting through the locked thread and if possible added on to the first page.
With 30% crit (who has 30% crit after 3.3?), it's more like a 9% raw throughput boost in a 5x1. Remember WG does a disproportionate amount of our gross HPS. Easier to just talk about Rejuv: 4T9 with 22% (typical) crit is an 11% boost to Rejuv; 4T10 is a 13.6% boost.
@Sinalos-Do you really think the 2pT10 has no value? I would argue against you. The 2pT9 was junk, but the 2pT10 does have some value. I don't know what that value is, but it is greater than the 2pT9. A good 25% or so of our healing comes from WG(at least mine) and the bonus does help that.
I am just curious if people think adding 106 SP +2pT10 is greater than the 4pT9.
I have a question about the value of 4pT9 bonus. I actually saw a spell power equivalent post on here once, but can't seem to find it anymore. I am in a position where I could drop the 4pt9 in order to pick up 106 spell power and the 2pt10 bonus-you guys think that is a good or bad trade off? Other stats would increase just a bit with the trade off.
In a similar situation myself, thinking about going from 4T9.245 to 2T10.251 because I got some nice offset gear (badge chest, Festergut 25 pants and Lord Marrowgar 25 gloves). Looking over my tonight's Recount of The Crimson Hall, I see Rejuve accounting for 66.6% of my 19.3mil healed, with 22% of that coming from crits; with my avg effective crit being 3500 and effective normal 2636, the set bonus accounts for 4.38% of my healing.
Unless I'll be surprised about how good the 2 set T10 bonus is, I feel the 110 or so more SP and 0.5% more haste will not make up for the bonus. But hey, Gearscore is what counts nowadays, no?
Keep in mind that ditching 4pT9 also means you can also ditch 2pT9, opting for strong haste-itemized 264s. This will make getting to 856 haste much easier. So, in addition to the SP upgrade you will also free up talent points as you can drop the 4 points in CF+filler.
Personally I held off for the 4t10, and now with one week left to get there I'm not about to change it up. I think you could argue both ways. I just felt like with a majority of my healing coming from RJ, prematurely ditching a bonus that had even a slight affect on that spell wasn't worth it until I could replace it with another bonus to that spell.
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Inevitably Blizzard will always nerf the second highest Tier to get people to make the transition as they did with our previous Tiers, but until then I'll stick with 4T9. I do like the prospect of blanketing even more of the raid with Rejuv, however.
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As long as the 4T10 bonus is attractive enough (and for now it looks like that's the case) then there's no real need to nerf 4T9. Bonuses tend to be nerfed only when the tier item is used beyond its intended life-cycle (shaman T2, anyone?). This is not the case for 4T9.
Not yet anyway. I don't know if Blizzard sees 10 man strict raiding worth balancing around, but the 4T10 will be mediocre there. The bonus will do next to nothing, given that we can blanket the whole raid with Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation.
Not yet anyway. I don't know if Blizzard sees 10 man strict raiding worth balancing around, but the 4T10 will be mediocre there. The bonus will do next to nothing, given that we can blanket the whole raid with Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation.
Perhaps but when you notice it has done it for you that opens up a GCD to use on another spell which still increases your potential HPS and such outside of "I'm getting RJ on an additional person outside of my possible rotation" which could actually end up being more useful in 10 than 25 where chances are it would just RJ an additional target which someone else is more likely covering (going into heroic modes not normal where this doesn't matter so much).
Not yet anyway. I don't know if Blizzard sees 10 man strict raiding worth balancing around, but the 4T10 will be mediocre there. The bonus will do next to nothing, given that we can blanket the whole raid with Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation.
Also, in strict 10 man, because of the lower item level and therefore less haste available, the cost of taking 4T10 is higher in terms of spell power and/or spec.
First, I apologise for slightly derailing the previous discussion, but I find the description of the Purified Lunar Dust quoting it at 101mp5 to be very misleading.
Reviewing parses of my own logs (yes, small sample is small), I find it to proc once per minute on average. Assuming wowhead data is correct, the 45sec ICD combined with 10% chance to proc on cast makes this proc on average once every 55sec (45 sec ICD + 10 * 1sec GCD casts), which seems to match my experience.
This brings its mp5 value from 101mp5 down to 76mp5 on average.
That seems correct--wowhead lists a 10% proc rate for all trinkets in that family (Memento of Tyrande, Sif's Remembrance, Show of Faith, Purified Lunar Dust). 55s CD is probably the best model.
Shall we start a t10 4set question/test list for next week?
First of all: Does it consume the Rejuv? If so, report to Blizz asap!
Does the created Rejuv tick for the same amount? Is it affected by Glyph of Rapid Rejuv?
How far can it jump?
How does it choose the target to jump to? Does it prioritize people without your Rejuv over lowest health % or deficit?
What happens if it procs and everyone in range of the jump has a Rejuv from you on them? Does it refresh the Rejuv with the shortest duration?
What happens if it procs and no one is in range of the jump? Does it refresh the Rejuv it proc'd from?
Who 'casts' the proc Rejuv, the caster of the original Rejuv, or the target the original Rejuv was on?
Can it proc if you're dead, or stunned/silenced/unable to cast?
Is the range centered around the you, or around the target the original Rejuv was ticking on?
Can the new Rejuv proc another new Rejuv?
Does the proc Rejuv stack with your Rejuv on a target or replace an existing Rejuv?
Does the proc put you in combat if the target was in combat? Does it cause Threat?
Is the duration of the new rejuv affected by Glyph of Rapid Rejuv?
Is the period of the new rejuv affected by Glyph of Rapid Rejuv?
Can the new Rejuv proc Glyph of Rejuvenation?
Will it only jump to party/raid members, or any friendly target in range? Pets? Vehicles? Totems?
Will it jump to friendly NPCs? Neutral NPCs?
Will it jump to PVP Flagged players, when the caster is not flagged? Would doing so flag the caster? Does it count as a pvp action and aggro guards?
01/19/10, 6:46 PM
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