The Restoration Itemization Thread for 3.3 - Page 3

♦ Carebare · 01/24/10, 1:29 PM

I can answer a few with the educated guesses angle:
1) It will spawn a new RJ. -- this has more or less been stated formally by Blizzard.
2) RE: Sindragosa -- No it should not. Theoretically it should act like priest Prayer of Mending. Instability should proc on a spell you cast not off a chain cast that did not originate from you.

I think our best course of action on the others is to start providing logs so that we can evaluate them toward the end of the week. I will be using 4t10 on Tuesday following our kill of Lady DW, so I will have mine up for review starting then.

MegaVolt · 01/26/10, 5:13 AM

I suggest a few basic tests if someone gets it today. You need 2 willing participants, one of which should be a Warlock.

1. Keeping Rejuv active on all 3 of you until you get the 4t10 proc. Will it overwrite an existing Rejuv or stack with it? If it overwrites one, will it always overwrite the one with the lowest duration or a random one?
2. Keeping Rejuv active on all 3 of you while the Warlock uses Life Tap so that he is never at full health. Will the proc always target the Warlock or anyone of you?
3. Keeping Rejuv active on 2 of you. Will the proc always target the third (who doesn't have a Rejuv on him) or is the target random?
4. Keeping Rejuv active on yourself and the Warlock who uses LT to keep himself at low health. Will the proc target the full HP group member without Rejuv on him or the low HP Warlock that already has a Rejuv running on him? Or is it completely random?

All of those would have to be done multiple times to get some statistics. I think those tests cover the most interesting things about the proc and I'd be extremely happy if someone could find the time to do them

♦ forostie · 01/26/10, 9:03 AM

I'll be doing a bunch of testing tomorrow. From what I can see, the thing that will really make or break the 4 set bonus in terms of usability will be if it can proc off itself. Hopefully, it will spawn another spell cast event so it doesn't cause any UI problems too.

MegaVolt · 01/26/10, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by forostie

I'll be doing a bunch of testing tomorrow. From what I can see, the thing that will really make or break the 4 set bonus in terms of usability will be if it can proc off itself. Hopefully, it will spawn another spell cast event so it doesn't cause any UI problems too.

I don't agree. Gettnig a secondary proc is only a minor effect, with 4t10 in the order of magnitude of 10% for Rejuv the secondary effect will only give around 1%, not nearly enough to be significant.

What's really important is how the proc targeting works. Will it stack with existing Rejuvs or will it overwrite them? Will it target low HP raid members (no matter if they already have Rejuv on them, most probably wasting the proc in case it overwrites an existing one) or will it only target people without Rejuv (greatly helping out on raid blanketing)?
That's why I think the 4 simple tests I posted above are the most essential (and luckily they can be done quick and easy as soon as anyone got the set, since I missed raiding and dailies over Christmas for me this will sadly take one more week so I can't do them myself yet).

I fear it will work like WG and just target the lowest HP raid member in range, overwriting any existing effect on it. For WG this is not an issue since only the last tick can still be active on the target (6s cooldown, 7s duration) but for Rejuv it would almost render the set bonus useless.

• Hamlet · 01/26/10, 12:23 PM

Few Trauma logs from a bunch of pulls at a heavy raid damage fight:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Just fitting in what I'd hypothesized before--Trauma tends to have a similar effectivenass ratio as our other heals. It remains at around a 2% contribution to effective healing even at fights where ordinary heals are doing very well.

Shelendil · 01/26/10, 5:57 PM

I only did about 30 minutes of testing, so my sample size is not large by any means.

Group was three people including a lock with a pet.

1. It can jump on application, not just ticks.
2. I was unable to get it to jump when all targets had rejuv.
3. When all players had rejuv it jumped to the pet (no rejuv) 4/4 times.
3a. Repeating with lock lifetapping it still jumped to pet (no rejuv) 2/2 times.
4. With one rejuv up, it jumped to the lifetapping warlock 5/5 times.

I didn't think to check the range of the jump.

• Hamlet · 01/26/10, 6:03 PM

That sounds to me like: smart targeted, doesn't overwrite existing HoT's, and as a bonus, 7 chances to proc instead of 6? That's about as good as we could have hoped for. More confirmation would be nice.

Numeno · 01/27/10, 3:20 AM

Originally Posted by Shelendil

I only did about 30 minutes of testing, so my sample size is not large by any means.

Group was three people including a lock with a pet.

1. It can jump on application, not just ticks.
2. I was unable to get it to jump when all targets had rejuv.
3. When all players had rejuv it jumped to the pet (no rejuv) 4/4 times.
3a. Repeating with lock lifetapping it still jumped to pet (no rejuv) 2/2 times.
4. With one rejuv up, it jumped to the lifetapping warlock 5/5 times.

I didn't think to check the range of the jump.

When you say "jump". Was this a new one created or the rejuv just moved?

Also, curious to know if the ticks were the same power.

Sekke · 01/27/10, 3:34 AM

Originally Posted by Numeno

When you say "jump". Was this a new one created or the rejuv just moved?

Also, curious to know if the ticks were the same power.

It was confirmed by Blue some time ago that a new Rejuv is created.

Kirbie44 · 01/27/10, 4:49 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

That sounds to me like: smart targeted, doesn't overwrite existing HoT's, and as a bonus, 7 chances to proc instead of 6? That's about as good as we could have hoped for. More confirmation would be nice.

I got on my roommates druid to test this as well, as he received his 4PC. I would agree to everything, and like to add that I am almost positive that it does not proc of Glyph of Rejuvenation, as the heal is called Glyph of Rejuve, not Rejuvenation itself. I deleted the combat logs like an idiot, but I had obtained ~ 450 procs of Glyph of Rejuve with the 4PC on, and no evidence suggests it proc'd off it.

[x] Smart Heal
[x] Application of Rejuve
[x] No overriding (good for swiftmend)
[ ] Glyph of Rejuvenation (?)

It did seem to jump about 15 yards, but I did not test that. Most likely 30 yards? Maybe only 12.

♦ Carebare · 01/27/10, 7:21 AM

4t10 starts from Gunship Battle, if folks are interested. Also incidental Trauma results in there.

Kermit · 01/27/10, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Carebare

4t10 starts from Gunship Battle, if folks are interested. Also incidental Trauma results in there.

If I'm reading this right, the T10 procs counts as a separete spell, also called Rejuvenation. From your logs it seems the second rejuv spell accounts for somewhere between 5-10% healing depending on fight, and a whopping 17.5% on festergut.

edit: Also, following the spell link leads to this spell, which claims a 40yd range. Seems interesting indeed.

Arentios · 01/27/10, 10:28 AM

Doing the distributions with the new knowledge that the set bonus can proc off the initial cast as well as each tick, you end up with approximately ~15.2% increase in the number of Rejuvs in the average case. However, for a few reasons it should perform better than 15.2% increase in healing from Rejuv in the average case because it's both smart and not subject to human limitations. This has been discussed recently; we're not perfect in optimizing our button presses and/or target choices. The set bonus doesn't have those restrictions, especially not where button presses are involved.

So on fights like Festergut or Blood Queen, where there is likely always going to be a good un-rejuv'd target, the set bonus should perform exceptionally well. Festergut in Carebare's parse indicates this (though simple randomness and good luck might account for it doing a staggering 30% of the healing of the base rejuv). Carebare had 22% more Rejuv tics as a result of the set bonus, which is well above the expected. Also of note is that proc'd rejuvs had 11% less overhealing than manually cast rejuvs.

Comparatively, on Council, a fight which still has lots of damage, but of a more spikey nature with sometimes unpredictable targets, the proc fared much worse. There the proc was only 11% more effective healing from Rejuv, and actually had more overhealing, but still well within the bounds of randomness. Even in that case, 11% more effective healing from Rejuv is nothing to sneeze at, since that's generally better than what we see in practice from 4 piece T9. Averaging out the two encounters, this comes out to similar or better than 4 piece T8, which is generally seen as an excellent set bonus.

• Hamlet · 01/27/10, 10:42 AM

Log cropped for Gunship onwards:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

At first glance, this makes it look extremely good. Proc healing added 17.5% to your total Rejuv healing. A lot of people were speculating that it would have a lower effectiveness ratio than ordinary Rejuvs, I thought it would be roughly equal, but it seems like it can often be slightly better. I think the smart-targeting can drop it on someone for whom the first tick will be useful with more success than a human can (no reaction time or latency).

And previously we'd thought a 13.6% increase with 6 chances to proc, but if it's actually 7 (sill have to confirm this), it would be 1/0.86 = a 16.3% increase.

Demagogue · 01/27/10, 11:17 AM

Other notes:
-Spell duration is still 18 seconds, regardless of 15s tooltip (Expected this with the last minute Rejuv change they did to all ranks)
-Looks to get full/Most benefit of all talents/sp bonuses that normal Rejuv does. Carebare's tick differ by 6.5 hp healed

The one thing I noticed (only once, but still)
[22:26:09.028] Lailla's Rejuvenation is refreshed by Carebare

This was going through the combat log filtered specifically ON the SpellID... I guess it is safe (however rare) to say that it will recast itself on someone on occasion as well.

Arentios · 01/27/10, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Demagogue

Other notes:
-Spell duration is still 18 seconds, regardless of 15s tooltip (Expected this with the last minute Rejuv change they did to all ranks)
-Looks to get full/Most benefit of all talents/sp bonuses that normal Rejuv does. Carebare's tick differ by 6.5 hp healed

Rejuvenation itself only has a 15 second duration on the tooltip, it just gets +3 seconds from Nature's Splendor. The proc being 18 seconds seems to affirm that it's treated exactly as the base Rejuvenation spell from a talent perspective, unlike the 4 piece T8 proc.

Fallenangel · 01/27/10, 12:52 PM

This might be considered a duh question, but can you swiftmend the rejuvenation it creates? Seems to me like a pretty big question but wasn't directly addressed in the testing as far I as saw. Not entirely clear since it has a different spell ID.
In the same vein, does it show up on grid (as "your" rejuv)? What happens if you manually cast a rejuv on a target that got a proc?

Shelendil · 01/27/10, 1:26 PM

It shows on Grid as your rejuv, and you can swiftmend it.

Kertor · 01/27/10, 1:32 PM

This was expected I guess, but for confirmation:

From what I could see in the logs, if you cast a rejuv on a target that got a proc, your rejuv replaces the proc.
Also, from a quick look, it seems that the proc does NOT trigger revitalize. Can anyone confirm?

Xasthur · 01/27/10, 1:50 PM

I just tested and can confirm that revitalize, rapid rejuv, and the rejuv glyph all affect the 4-set rejuv.

edit: Got a screenshot of it. It doesn't seem to overwrite an existing rejuv either. Also, as far as I can tell after just chain casting rejuv on myself (also manually canceling the rejuv before casting a new one) to see if it procs off the initial cast, it doesn't seem to. I'm curious to know if the final tick of the rejuv will re-apply to the same person if that person happens to be the lowest health.

Additionally, more 4-set logs for those interested (10-man, however): World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Demagogue · 01/27/10, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kertor

This was expected I guess, but for confirmation:

From what I could see in the logs, if you cast a rejuv on a target that got a proc, your rejuv replaces the proc.
Also, from a quick look, it seems that the proc does NOT trigger revitalize. Can anyone confirm?

Can confirm it DOES proc Revitalize based Carebare's logs, if you look at the following query:
[{"spellNames": ["Revitalize"], "eventTypes": [8], "targetNames": ["Manly"]}, {"eventTypes": [4], "targetNames": ["Manly"], "spellIds": [53251]}, {"eventTypes": [4], "targetNames": ["Manly"], "spellIds": [70691]}, {"eventTypes": [4], "targetNames": ["Manly"], "spellIds": [48441]}]
(Essentially any Rejuv, WG on Manly as well as any revitalize on him/her)

Timestamp 22:22:45.860, 23:03:19.220, and 23:03:19.749 all show Manly gaining Rejuv (id70691) (when no Rejuv/WG was present from Carebare or Melador) and gaining revitalize during the duration of the Rejuv. Without Melador or Carebare casting their rejuv(id48441) or WG(id53251) on him/her during the timeframe.

of the 154 procs of Revitalize Manly got (from Gun Ship on) 4 were from the T10 Rejuv of the 88 Rejuvs on Manly for that duration only 3 were from the T10 the rest were from Melador or Carebare.

Sekke · 01/27/10, 4:22 PM

One more clarification: I haven't had time to dig through the logs yet, but it seems as if a proc'd Rejuv CANNOT cause another proc. Is this correct? Would probably be way too good if that were the case.

Demagogue · 01/27/10, 4:36 PM

I highly doubt we would be able to find that in a log such as Carebare's. To test that would require a controlled enviroment. You would need to cast a rejuv on someone and then the second it skips(jumps, replicates, whatever word we end up using) to another cancel the original and 'wait and see'.

Something I was curious about from Shelendil's testing. Will it jump to someone when everyone is full health. From the sounds of their testing the pet would have been at full health when doing their testing. Shelendil can you confirm please.

Xasthur · 01/27/10, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Demagogue

I highly doubt we would be able to find that in a log such as Carebare's. To test that would require a controlled enviroment. You would need to cast a rejuv on someone and then the second it skips(jumps, replicates, whatever word we end up using) to another cancel the original and 'wait and see'.

Something I was curious about from Shelendil's testing. Will it jump to someone when everyone is full health. From the sounds of their testing the pet would have been at full health when doing their testing. Shelendil can you confirm please.

Yeah, it will jump to somebody if everyone is at full health.

Kluian · 01/27/10, 7:05 PM

Does the "Rejuvenation" show up in recount as a separate spell, or just WoL parses?