The Restoration Itemization Thread for 3.3 - Page 3

oopsminded · 01/20/10, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

For one, you're forgetting your Solaces. That alone pretty much answers your question.

I think he isn't, he said "with 2 stacked solaces".

I always regarded with suspicion the way many EJ posters toss aside the mana regen issue, as, from practical experience I knew otherwise. Not taking into account the possibility of having to battle rezz someone, shapeshift a couple of times in a fight, maybe throw a Cyclone, not hitting the first Innervate at the optimum point in the fight, having to keep LB rolling without letting it drop, and many many other variables, looks like pointless elitism to me. (pretty much like all the pvp restos that brag about not having mana issues, skipping points in Living Spirit, but glyphing Innervate.)

*what he is forgetting, I think, is OoC, and especially smart use of OoC (lifebloom cast, WG cast)

• Hamlet · 01/20/10, 3:04 AM

I don't know, I guess. I don't seem to run out? It's an interesting question; we should have a better idea of where our mana actually goes. I still don't see how people have mana concerns when they plan on their own Innervates. For me, it's more a question of how comfortable I can be without my own Innervate, because using it obviates the issue entirely--I could go on for minutes on end.

Case study: I did Blood Queen 10m today. For those who haven't tried her yet, you're going to find a pretty intense 5x1 spam fight (protip: the aura ticks every 2s, perfect for Rapid Rejuv). I Innervated myself to be safe, but wound up finishing with 13k mana after 4.5 minutes. Here's a log:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

--Revitalize stands out (have I mentioned that Revitalize is really good?). I got over 140 MP5 from Revitalize.
--Again, 5x1 is an abbreviation. I don't know about others, but I tend not to cast WG on cooldown when there isn't actually excess damage to heal off.
--The sheet uses a 1.1s cast time for instants, which might be optimistic. Increasing the delay between spells rapidly cuts down on mana consumption (in this case, it looks like I cast around 170 Rejuvs in a 270s fight. Hard to tell how many WG's.).

Erdluf · 01/20/10, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Case study: I did Blood Queen 10m today. For those who haven't tried her yet, you're going to find a pretty intense 5x1 spam fight (protip: the aura ticks every 2s, perfect for Rapid Rejuv). I Innervated myself to be safe, but wound up finishing with 13k mana after 4.5 minutes. Here's a log:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

--Revitalize stands out (have I mentioned that Revitalize is really good?). I got over 140 MP5 from Revitalize.
--Again, 5x1 is an abbreviation. I don't know about others, but I tend not to cast WG on cooldown when there isn't actually excess damage to heal off.
--The sheet uses a 1.1s cast time for instants, which might be optimistic. Increasing the delay between spells rapidly cuts down on mana consumption (in this case, it looks like I cast around 170 Rejuvs in a 270s fight. Hard to tell how many WG's.).

Using this query in the WoL log browser; [{"eventTypes": [6], "sourceNames": ["Hamlet"], "spellNames": ["Wild Growth", "Regrowth", "Swiftmend", "Innervate", "Abolish Poison", "Rebirth"]}] and getting counts by hand:

WG: 21 (More of a 8x1 rotation)
Rg: 4
Swiftmend: 3
Innervate: 1
Abolish Poison: 1
Rebirth: 1

I checked for Nourish and Nature's Swiftness, and didn't see either. So in an intense fight, 268s from first cast to last, about 204s was spent casting, or in a GC (at the haste cap).

Roughly 24% time spent not casting. Using Fallen Angel's mana numbers, the raw mana consumption drops to 1826, the mana deficit drops to 338 MP5, and the time till OOM climbs above 450s (7'30"). This ignores the rotation change, but dropping about 16 WG, and adding an innervate should more than make up for the "extra" spells he cast.

• Hamlet · 01/20/10, 12:31 PM

That's a good way of doing it. I'll have to try it with some other fights sometime to see whether that's an unusually low cast time % for me (Mal'Ganis can be very laggy on Tuesdays as well). Also, now that I think about it, I might not have had Wrath of Air.

Anyway, maybe that helps shed some light on all this. People are right that we shouldn't act like mana is to be ignored. But it still seems to me to not be a serious consideration in picking gear (except for trinkets).

Toadfoot · 01/21/10, 11:58 AM

I have a question about the value of 4pT9 bonus. I actually saw a spell power equivalent post on here once, but can't seem to find it anymore. I am in a position where I could drop the 4pt9 in order to pick up 106 spell power and the 2pt10 bonus-you guys think that is a good or bad trade off? Other stats would increase just a bit with the trade off.

Sinalos · 01/21/10, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Toadfoot

I have a question about the value of 4pT9 bonus. I actually saw a spell power equivalent post on here once, but can't seem to find it anymore. I am in a position where I could drop the 4pt9 in order to pick up 106 spell power and the 2pt10 bonus-you guys think that is a good or bad trade off? Other stats would increase just a bit with the trade off.

4T9 is roughly a 12.5% (based on 30% crit chance and 5x1 rotation) increase to raw throughput which is worth significantly more than the trade off you are talking about. In comparison 4T10 is also worth roughly 12%. The 2 piece bonuses for T9 and T10 are hardly worth talking about. Originally I didn't want to answer this question, but considering the efforts being put to make this forum more readable these numbers should be more prominently displayed instead of sifting through the locked thread and if possible added on to the first page.

• Hamlet · 01/21/10, 4:24 PM

With 30% crit (who has 30% crit after 3.3?), it's more like a 9% raw throughput boost in a 5x1. Remember WG does a disproportionate amount of our gross HPS. Easier to just talk about Rejuv: 4T9 with 22% (typical) crit is an 11% boost to Rejuv; 4T10 is a 13.6% boost.

Toadfoot · 01/21/10, 5:48 PM

@Sinalos-Do you really think the 2pT10 has no value? I would argue against you. The 2pT9 was junk, but the 2pT10 does have some value. I don't know what that value is, but it is greater than the 2pT9. A good 25% or so of our healing comes from WG(at least mine) and the bonus does help that.

I am just curious if people think adding 106 SP +2pT10 is greater than the 4pT9.

oopsminded · 01/21/10, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Toadfoot

I have a question about the value of 4pT9 bonus. I actually saw a spell power equivalent post on here once, but can't seem to find it anymore. I am in a position where I could drop the 4pt9 in order to pick up 106 spell power and the 2pt10 bonus-you guys think that is a good or bad trade off? Other stats would increase just a bit with the trade off.

In a similar situation myself, thinking about going from 4T9.245 to 2T10.251 because I got some nice offset gear (badge chest, Festergut 25 pants and Lord Marrowgar 25 gloves). Looking over my tonight's Recount of The Crimson Hall, I see Rejuve accounting for 66.6% of my 19.3mil healed, with 22% of that coming from crits; with my avg effective crit being 3500 and effective normal 2636, the set bonus accounts for 4.38% of my healing.

Unless I'll be surprised about how good the 2 set T10 bonus is, I feel the 110 or so more SP and 0.5% more haste will not make up for the bonus. But hey, Gearscore is what counts nowadays, no?

Jurik · 01/21/10, 7:04 PM

Keep in mind that ditching 4pT9 also means you can also ditch 2pT9, opting for strong haste-itemized 264s. This will make getting to 856 haste much easier. So, in addition to the SP upgrade you will also free up talent points as you can drop the 4 points in CF+filler.

♦ Carebare · 01/21/10, 7:53 PM

Personally I held off for the 4t10, and now with one week left to get there I'm not about to change it up. I think you could argue both ways. I just felt like with a majority of my healing coming from RJ, prematurely ditching a bonus that had even a slight affect on that spell wasn't worth it until I could replace it with another bonus to that spell.

♦ forostie · 01/21/10, 8:03 PM

Inevitably Blizzard will always nerf the second highest Tier to get people to make the transition as they did with our previous Tiers, but until then I'll stick with 4T9. I do like the prospect of blanketing even more of the raid with Rejuv, however.

Fallenangel · 01/21/10, 9:47 PM

As long as the 4T10 bonus is attractive enough (and for now it looks like that's the case) then there's no real need to nerf 4T9. Bonuses tend to be nerfed only when the tier item is used beyond its intended life-cycle (shaman T2, anyone?). This is not the case for 4T9.

Nitz · 01/22/10, 2:38 AM

Not yet anyway. I don't know if Blizzard sees 10 man strict raiding worth balancing around, but the 4T10 will be mediocre there. The bonus will do next to nothing, given that we can blanket the whole raid with Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation.

Playered · 01/22/10, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by Nitz

Not yet anyway. I don't know if Blizzard sees 10 man strict raiding worth balancing around, but the 4T10 will be mediocre there. The bonus will do next to nothing, given that we can blanket the whole raid with Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation.

Perhaps but when you notice it has done it for you that opens up a GCD to use on another spell which still increases your potential HPS and such outside of "I'm getting RJ on an additional person outside of my possible rotation" which could actually end up being more useful in 10 than 25 where chances are it would just RJ an additional target which someone else is more likely covering (going into heroic modes not normal where this doesn't matter so much).