People will be abuzz about Paragon's kill for a bit, which used no Resto Druids. But I wouldn't read too much into that yet, since their healing scheme generally is a bit of a mystery (using a Holy Priest is surprising and nonintuitive, for example). There's not too much point trying to mimic a composition when the underlying strategy isn't fully known. By general current understanding of the fight, a Resto Druid is useful for countering Infest, though not as important as a Disc Priest.

I don't know if the discussion about engineering has ended or not yet, but I've been an engineer since BC (Because mostly back then I didn't pay attention to professions and I thought "Hey this is cool!") and I really like the glove proc.

I'm able to itemize my gear for a little more haste (currently running 755 in mostly 264gear) because I always get a Focus Magic.

If I have the "perfect storm" of buffs (Heroism, Glove proc, Haste pot, Wrath of Air) my SFs get down to 1.16s, granted... this is only for at max 11 seconds during a fight, but its really nice to be able to lay down some intense burst.

Has anyone else run into issues with Starfall now being too dangerous to use during Deathwhisper?

Starfall is great, as is an unglyphed Typhoon. Entangling Roots are nice as a last minute clutch ability.

I've always been able to hold my own during that phase and while other classes are better, a Moonkin on LK of any difficulty shouldn't be a disadvantage.

And going off of what Hamlet said, Resto Druids are great. On any progression fight, Revitalize is a great tool for boosting your raid DPS and while I don't entirely believe that Restoration Druids are great for infest (Disc / Holy are just so much better at handling it due to proactive and reactive abilities), they provide a lot of stability and are great for spot healing the gaps.


It's all about timing honestly. I'm not sure which difficulty you're referring to, but you don't want to use it when people have CC's out, or within the first 5 seconds of a new wave. Beyond those two conditions, it's perfectly fine to use, and those two conditions usually are easy to predict and line up well.

Starfall has a 10 second duration, on normal mode and hard mode the add waves are 60 / 50 seconds apart, respectively, and the Mind Control has a CD (the exact duration of which escapes me at the moment, but I want to say it's roughly 40 seconds).

You should be fine to use it as long as you pay attention to those.


In terms of the Engineering debate, I've always been against putting all of your eggs into one basket. Yes it's a great boost for Eclipse, no doubt, but there are many occasions, especially during progression, where a badly timed ability can hurt you more than it helps. I prefer to try and boost the entire arsenal, since Starfire Eclipse alone, typically doesn't carry my damage done on a fight. We have so many RNG elements, I think it's better on more dynamic fights to spread your dependencies onto other areas that you can control (Putricide is a great example. If you proc Starfire, pop your Gloves, and then get targeted by Malleable / Slime Puddle / Gas Cloud / Unbound Plague, or have to collapse for a Volatile) that is a huge DPS loss. Now you COULD hold off on proccing it if any of those abilities are due up or wait until the next Starfire Eclipse to use the Gloves, but you're still trying to effectively weave it between a number of dangerous and uncontrollable timers. This is just one example, of course.

That definitely can (and does) happen but I don't know if its worth discounting on that basis. I mean, its really the same gamble you take with haste pots, except you get it roughly 4-5 times in a fight. I always try my best to wait to proc it until debuffs have gone out (Unchained Magic, Malleable Goo, etc...) but theres always going to be bad luck. I think the tailoring cloak enchant is a bigger gamble than the glove proc, because that can go off whenever... Its nice that this proc is controllable.

All of that aside, different playstyles are better for different people, so if you're someone who would rather have the 28 spellpower for the entire fight then thats is certainly a better option.

GC had posted Starfall coefficients at 37% and 13% per star. Those are the numbers Wrathcalcs is using.

I finally stopped blowing things up with it long enough to test on live (Stormwind dummies). I'm pretty sure I'm seeing numbers consistent with 30% and 13%.

2933 SP, not in Moonkin form, no SP procs. I did have chaotic meta, and 3/3 E&M (personal, not on targets).

Using base-damage ranges of 563-653 for big stars, and 101 to 101 for splash.

Big star, non-crit: 1540 to 1625
Big star, crit: 3201 to 3356

Small stars 511-512
Small crits 1068-1069

I show small stars right at 13% (between 12.9928% and 13.0082%).
I show large stars right at 30% (between 29.9719% and 30.0831%)

Formulas (1.06 is E&M, 2.09 is chaotic meta, combined with 5/5 Vengeance).

29.9719% = ((1625-1)/1.06-653)/2933 Coef any lower, no way to see 1625
30.0831% = ((3201+1)/1.06/2.09-563)/2933 Coef any higher, no way to see 3201

Unfortunately, I'm getting similar results as Erdluf. It didn't take but one crack with Starfall to test this out. Using the numbers given by GC, I calculated the expected range of the Starfall direct hits and within 1 test it was obvious to see that these numbers were incorrect.

I should have been able to get a range of 1846 to 1945. None of my Starfalls came close to even the lower limit of that range. Further tests have mirrored Erdluf's results of 30%.

Without a doubt, the coefficient for Starfall has been reduced.

Hmm, good to know. How precisely did you check the 30%?

Regarding Moonfire and our rotation:
Looking at WrathCalc using my stats and comparing DPET for Moonfire with and without glyph.

Having it Glyphed i get compared to Non Glyphed yields a difference of
Non Extended : 9922 - 8477 = 1445
Extended 3X : 15455 - 11883 = 3572

The normal rotation today is to only cast Moonfire if it gets extended, ie after of Wrath Eclipse.
The glyph it self changes the Direct Damage of the spell from 1600 to 400.

During movement we can only do 3 things, cast IS, MF or GotW. However in many cases the casting of Dots during movement will either clip the current dot or interfere with the rotation so we loose the optimal rotation.

So my questions is, if there are a lot of movement where we need to be on the move frequently or under a longer period would it now be better to have Moonfire unglyphed? The DPS loss should be catered towards the DPET but also compared to the DPS gain we get from the glyph we insert instead.

Glyphed
IS = 75 DPS -- Hit debuff issues
Focus = 96 DPS -- Positioning Issues

I did a rough analyse on each fight and i think that unglyphed Moonfire is better on this fights
Lord M -- Coldflame, WW phase
Lady D -- DaD, Ghosts, targetting
Rotface, -- Frequent movement for spray, longer for Mutated Infection
Professor P -- Chased, Goo, phase 3, flasks,
Blood Princes -- Target shifts, vortexes, Fire balls
BQL -- Linked, ground stuff, Airphase, Fear, Bites.
Dreamwalker -- Targetting and movement. No Target lives long enough to dot.
Sindrogosa -- Unchained magic favores high DPET, air phase and phase 3 is movement. Altough high Dot Damage on Dragon in air.
LK -- Burst Damage more effective? Valkyrs, Raging Spririts, Vile Spirits?

Not that important on this fights
Gunship -- dont care
Lord Saurfang -- No movement
Festergut, -- Small movement, can cast Dots then.

I checked a combat log from the 23rd, and the 30% Starfall coefficient was in effect there. I don't know what number(s) was used on the PTR.

Method: Look at a paired little/big star, where neither star had partial resists. Find a SP that fits the little star, and see whether 30% or 37% is a fit for the big star.

For the following, crits are marked with "*" and get a 2.09 multiplier. All are assumed to have MSS (4%), E&M(6%) E&M(13%) and Sanctified Retribution (3%). Middle two rows also have Omen of Doom (15%).

760 4634* SP=3780
1891* 5622* SP=3940 OoD
2005* 5840* SP=4225 OoD
835 5062* SP=4225

Before-proc spellpower seems to have been 3740. First row had two stacks of Cultivated Power (+20 SP per stack). Remaining rows had ten stacks.

Last two rows also had 285 SP from Frostforged Sage

Edit: GC confirms that the numbers that went live were smaller than those he originally posted.

I can see where you're going with this, but I really can't see GoF being an option, especially on hard modes. Maybe once your guild gets quite comfortable with these fights, you could sneak into range on every fight, but in my experience, GoM has been a better choice. Concerning GoIS, it does technically provide a dps boost on movement, but that's assuming most of the fight is made up of movement. Plus you lose the 3% hit debuff, which can be quite important on certain bosses.

That is pretty much the strategy I assume as well.

In an ideal rotation of about 36 seconds assuming RNG, a fully extended moonfire+keeping idol up requires that you only moonfire once in that 36 seconds, the ideal time being the start of a fight, then following, near the end of solar eclipse, to more quickly get into lunar.

Roughly speaking, in wrath phase, you cast about 10 wraths, moonfire, 4 more before SE falls off, moonfire down to 11, 3-4 more to go into starfire, down to 7, fully extended to 16, which lasts past lunar, your idol buff is thus at 15 after then first potential Solar proccing starfire, and barring bad RNG, you will be able to moonfire again with 5-8 seconds left on solar, which should last into lunar again.