Isn't FF being applied or not a function of how much HP the add has and what % of that HP is nuked off by physical DPS, rather than the time it is alive?
Time alive and hp are usually heavily correlated though
To estimate the value of FF, I could for example take some rogue and calculate for him how much his dps goes up by having FF on his target. However, on adds burst damage is likely to play a more important role, which implies that by this method I would undervalue FF.
Wowhead says the Valkyr Shadowguard's are ??. IFF is a 3% boost to casters at the hit cap (unless the target will have Misery anyway). It is also a 5% armor reduction. I'm not sure of all the math after Arpen, but I'd assume that is a on the order of a 1% boost to physical DPS (but ferals could provide that at no cost).
It costs you a GCD, and likely causes you to lose NG (unless Starfall is up). Overall, that is a penalty of 10-15k damage at Heroic LK 25 levels.
Assuming no Misery and no Feral, it is probably never worth casting on a target with less than 300k health (unless you are just looking for another instant-cast spell). It is probably always worth casting on a target with over one million remaining health (I'm not sure of their health in heroic 25).
Note that if your raid doesn't have Ebon Plaguebringer, E&M is a much more important debuff.
First off, as our tactic includes heavy clustering it also includes running away from each other as the valk spawns (since defile will come any time druing the phase).
So what I do is running in the direction of the edge where the valk is flying (or the 3 are, if 25M) and on the run MF/FF/IS (that order, because I might turn my back against them and MF must be cast facing them). I do not FF all three, but thats because we have a feral and in 25HM a second owl will be there, so that is distributed well.
Secondly though I am pretty sure they are 82 and NOT ?? (at least I am sure thats what tukui shows me).
But since you may, depending on tactic, be running after the spawn: Use it to dot/ff her and then start bursting her down.
On 10 man though, if you are out far enough by the time the MF-gcd is over it might be not worth casting it (I skipped it since we only had a rogue melee her on our 10HC kill and that guy stunned her anyways so not full burst here).
So I would really make it situational on lineup, way you have to run and finally the fact if the hit is needed (maybe I am wrong about the valk lvl). If hit is needed, the situation is clear: Cast it, it will be worth it, even in 10 man.
Imo, you should always keep FF up on main targets like bosses, the only excuse for a moonkin to not put up imp FF is on a tank and spank fight where everyone stays single target, liike BQL for instance.
This is ofc still only if you have a feral druid and SP in the raid.
For bosses like LK where you are swapping targets all the time it's essential that you use that 1 gcd, so the 3 % is up 100 % of the time. Sps missery isn't a long lasting buff like FF, so might ware off on encounters like that. Another good example on this is Lady Deathwhisper.
The wrists may be BIS since we don't have crit/haste wrists at the 277 level--will have to check. The others are still solid pieces that may be nice for people without access to top ICC gear.
I don't know the ICD yet. 763 spellpower seems weak for a standard 10/45 uptime proc at that ilvl, so maybe it will be 15/45 uptime (compare Phylactery of the Nameless Lich - Item - World of Warcraft ), which would potentially make it quite a solid trinket.
The wrists may be BIS since we don't have crit/haste wrists at the 277 level--will have to check. The others are still solid pieces that may be nice for people without access to top ICC gear.
I don't know the ICD yet. 763 spellpower seems weak for a standard 10/45 uptime proc at that ilvl, so maybe it will be 15/45 uptime (compare Phylactery of the Nameless Lich - Item - World of Warcraft ), which would potentially make it quite a solid trinket.
Remember that these are the normal versions of these items. I'm sure that the heroic versions of the Wrists and Back will be BIS. The trinket is interesting, but I would prefer something that was more Spell power focused.
Mmm, did forget about that. So 284 wrists and back will be BIS, and 10-man gloves still won't be better than set gloves (unless there's some really important shuffling for extra hit rating that can go on).
Mmm, did forget about that. So 284 wrists and back will be BIS, and 10-man gloves still won't be better than set gloves (unless there's some really important shuffling for extra hit rating that can go on).
guess this means Loop of endless labyrinth will become BiS aswell then, leaving out Lady bracers.
Am I wrong to assume that for alliance with a draenei, plaguebringers stained pants/tier gloves/exalted ring gets you to hit cap...which means those 3 plus rapid ascent/BQ crimson choker/new bracers will be BiS, also spirit-less setup. Potentially, this could work for horde as well with a few hit gems.
I did some calculations on potion usage, but unfortunately I seem to have misplaced my notes. For this reason the numbers might be a bit off, but the generaral conclusion won't be different.
First, I estimated the value of a Potion of Speed (during Bloodlusted Lunar) at 26K damage. Secondly, I estimated the value of a Potion of Wild Magic at 13K damage during a Bloodlusted Solar. However, the idea of a Potion of Wild Magic is to use it in combination with a Starfall, which I estimated at roughly 3.5K damage for a single target.
There might be some ways to manipulate the use of a Potion of Wild Magic to get more damage out of it, but it seems that only in situations in which you have a significant amount of splash damage that Potion of Wild Magic comes out on top. I haven't done the numbers on this, but it seems to be unlikely that you can get 6K extra splash damage by using Potion of Wild Magic.
If I didn't miss anything, then it seems that Potion of Speed is still the way to go. Off course if you are unlucky, and not able to use a Potion of Speed during Lunar, then a back-up Potion of Wild Magic might still have it's use. Moreover, you might want to pre-pot with Potion of Wild Magic.
In regards to the new items in the Ruby Sanctum, I think its fair to assume that the wrists will be a pure normal > heroic upgrade as we see in ICC. This would make them BIS, compared to heroic Brittle Bracers, IF we can cover the hit somewhere else. In my BIS list* (which is most likely very similar to others), I will have 291 hit rating - 28 above the hit cap for hordes. Allies with a draenei around can cover their hit cap with heroic tier 10 gloves and legs, plus the rep ring.
If I remove the heroic Lady's Brittle Bracers, I'll be 24 hit rating under the cap - just under 1% chance to hit. Now, I'm considering if it would be worth it to just cover it with a hit gem, and let that be it - we would still be slightly below the hit cap, but I've had 260 hit rating for quite a while, and rarely get to grumble over missed spells. If we just use a yellow socket for a pure +hit gem, all we lose is 12 SP and 10 haste, but we get to put on (heroic?) bracers with crit/haste on them, and a lot of spell power, more than we can find on any other bracer currently ingame.
So I'm leaning towards just replacing a gem with pure hit. The alternative is to get hit on a another ring or neckpiece. The cloak is not an option, because we would probably want the heroic version of the caster cloak. Replacing Ring of Rapic Ascent or the Blood Queens Crimson Choker would mean a loss in either crit or haste, and I would go up around the 292. So the question is really, do we want to sacrifice a whole stat on an item, and get hit over our cap, or do we accept losing an ametrine and being 4 hit rating under the cap?
* You'll notice I left out the heroic Royal Scepter. I suppose my BIS list is realistic on this regard.
So I'm leaning towards just replacing a gem with pure hit
If you're going to do this you're better off replacing two red with two yellow, as it'll give you 24 spell power and 20 hit rather than a red and yellow which give 23 spell power and 20 hit. It's not much but every little counts.
Your other options are:
Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Spell - World of Warcraft if you're using a one handed weapon (as armory shows you to be using), which would give you almost the perfect level of hit required but requires sacrificing a lot of spell power (i.e. 63 spell power for 25hit/25crit compared to the gem option which is 12sp per 10 hit);
using a +hit dragon eye (which takes you far over the cap and sacrifices more sp then individual gem replacement); or
reworking other pieces of gear as you've discussed.
Crit > Haste I guess? It's pretty close but I think the set item is better. Obviously the Gunship Captains will be better most of the time for most people as they'll be comparing against the 264 set version because 277 set tokens are very limited.
I'm using the mittens. My first 3 tokens would go to the 3 big pieces for both 264 + 277. The offset 277 hands dropped before I even had 264 tier so they were a fantastic upgrade for me.
They do however have a little less hit than the tier ones, which might put some people off. Others will be trying to stack crit. And of course some people are using other offset pieces, likely the crafted legs or Festergut ones.
Here are my two cents on the gloves vs. pants debate.
With plaguebringer's stained pants, 277 tier gloves, exalted ring, you reach draenei hit cap exactly, 237.
The other setup leaves you at 231 hit.
Assuming you would gem Gunship Mittens SP/spirit and SP for the socket bonus, and the tier legs SP and either SP/haste or SP/crit, the total value of these two together are:
419 SP, 122 crit, 100 haste, 180 hit, 10 spirit
The other setup, assuming 23 SP in gloves for tier, and 3 23 SP gems in Plaguebringer's stained pants would yield:
432 SP, 90 crit, 116 haste, 186 hit, 0 spirit
That means, the difference in using Plaguebringer's and tier gloves over gunship captain's and tier legs is
+13 SP, +16 haste, +6 hit, -32 crit, -10 spirit. This hit is necessary to reach hit cap for alliance, so if you are going to use the opposite, you would likely sacrifice a yellow gem to gem hit, which means you'd likely go further behind in haste or give up some lead in crit.
The difference is incredibly small, but I think tier gloves and plaguebringer's win out by a narrow margin.
Crit > Haste I guess? It's pretty close but I think the set item is better. Obviously the Gunship Captains will be better most of the time for most people as they'll be comparing against the 264 set version because 277 set tokens are very limited.
crit !> haste
at least not on my gear level
They are not very far apart but I think the biggest reason is that its better to skimp on gloves (by using tierones) and then splurge on the festergut pants.
Though, considering the availability of tier-tokens it might not be a bad idea, the 277 gloves are a lot better then the tier 264 ones.
Final setup though I'd go for legs from fester and tiergloves
They are not very far apart but I think the biggest reason is that its better to skimp on gloves (by using tierones) and then splurge on the festergut pants.
I was gearing/gemming that assumption as well.
Generally speaking, past both caps, haste was slightly above crit.
If I had to put relative values on all of it with spell power being 1.0 it would be something like this
Hit - 1.5
SP - 1.0
Haste(presoftcap) - 1.0
Crit(prelunarcap) - 0.8
Haste(postcap) - .60
Crit(postcap) - .55
Spirit - .35
Intellect - about .15 in my opinion, not a viable for yellow sockets anyway
Reality is, the difference between the two setups isn't going to yield more than about a 10 DPS difference, and are the two best setups. So they route you choose can be somewhat dependant on drops.
That being said, for horde, you obviously need 26 more hit, and, quite possibly, the best idea would be the same setup with some hybridized hit gems in yellow sockets.
Generally speaking, past both caps, haste was slightly above crit.
If I had to put relative values on all of it with spell power being 1.0 it would be something like this
Hit - 1.5
SP - 1.0
Haste(presoftcap) - 1.0
Crit(prelunarcap) - 0.8
Haste(postcap) - .60
Crit(postcap) - .55
Spirit - .35
Intellect - about .15 in my opinion, not a viable for yellow sockets anyway
Reality is, the difference between the two setups isn't going to yield more than about a 10 DPS difference, and are the two best setups. So they route you choose can be somewhat dependant on drops.
That being said, for horde, you obviously need 26 more hit, and, quite possibly, the best idea would be the same setup with some hybridized hit gems in yellow sockets.
how sure are you on these numbers?
I thought that for rotation wise and languish stacking that crit would have been better even post both soft caps. I do however also believe that solar eclipse has become stronger than lunar because of the large amount of crit we are running around with nowadays. plus, it seems that bosses resist more starfire dmg than wrath.
EDIT: Just one more question, how much haste is needed before you can actually get an extra SF during lunar? has anyone got numbers on this?
You're assuming that Nature's Grace is always active. The reason why haste still slightly outweighs crit is because during Solar eclipse, hast still has value (when Nature's Grace is down), but during Lunar Eclipse, more crit has no value at all.
The difference is small, but it's there. Of course if you could get to the point where your crit kept nature's grace up indefinitely, then that's another matter entirely.
I also think that heroism plays a part in the slight advantage of haste, as starfire can get to the point where its more DPS during heroism than wrath even during solar.
I also think that haste past the softcap diminishes the value of crit past the softcap, and, because it is incredibly difficult to keep your haste around the softcap(400), the discernable value of crit slightly decreases because of interaction with natures grace being less valuable for wrath, and 100% crit during lunar for starfire.
You're assuming that Nature's Grace is always active. The reason why haste still slightly outweighs crit is because during Solar eclipse, hast still has value (when Nature's Grace is down), but during Lunar Eclipse, more crit has no value at all.
The difference is small, but it's there. Of course if you could get to the point where your crit kept nature's grace up indefinitely, then that's another matter entirely.
On my sheet atm unbuffed in shape with just the relic up, I'm ruinning like 52 % crit, add 8 %(imp ff and schorch or imp SB) crit should give round 60 % crit in raids, and since NG is a 3 second buff you will be able to use 3 spells within that ecl time, asuming in solar ecl. For the NG buff to drop here is very low. Now i might not be the greatest mathmatician but if I crit on more than half my spells, NG's uptime should be close to 100 %.
On my sheet atm unbuffed in shape with just the relic up, I'm ruinning like 52 % crit, add 8 %(imp ff and schorch or imp SB) crit should give round 60 % crit in raids, and since NG is a 3 second buff you will be able to use 3 spells within that ecl time, asuming in solar ecl. For the NG buff to drop here is very low. Now i might not be the greatest mathmatician but if I crit on more than half my spells, NG's uptime should be close to 100 %.
Look for it's uptime in whatever log, you'll see that it's probably at least under 90%.
You are forgetting all the random elements (not critting 3 times in a row for Wrath and more credibly 2 times in row for SF) and movement time during which you aren't casting and where NG can easily fall off (MF can help there but it still won't be up all the time).
If you're going to do this you're better off replacing two red with two yellow, as it'll give you 24 spell power and 20 hit rather than a red and yellow which give 23 spell power and 20 hit. It's not much but every little counts.
Your other options are:
Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Spell - World of Warcraft if you're using a one handed weapon (as armory shows you to be using), which would give you almost the perfect level of hit required but requires sacrificing a lot of spell power (i.e. 63 spell power for 25hit/25crit compared to the gem option which is 12sp per 10 hit);
using a +hit dragon eye (which takes you far over the cap and sacrifices more sp then individual gem replacement); or
reworking other pieces of gear as you've discussed.
I didn't think about the enchant. To be honest, we are so engraved with SP enchants that we rarely think outside the box - well, I don't, at least.
I may be sacrificing a lot of spell power, but we are talking about hit below the hit cap, which is worth a lot more than spellpower is. It also means that we are able to use a 277-284 (?) bracer with more SP, and ofcourse crit and haste. Add the crit from the enchant as well, and I think it might be outweighed, and the loss in SP allows us for an overall increase.
05/20/10, 9:59 AM
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