Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 12

Obligatory · 04/05/10, 2:28 PM

@Zifrelm: As a fellow DFO user, it is my experience that you rarely need to worry about losing a starfall by waiting for a DFO proc to start your first one; most berserk timers are a flat 5-10 minutes, so there's no way to "lose" a starfall unless you wait over 40-50 seconds to cast the first one. And if you aren't running into the berserk timer, then it isn't too important to wring out every last ounce of damage, so you can just pop SF 4-5 seconds after the pull and then on cooldown after that.

Also, on a side note, with DFO, you should be trying to pop SF right when (or just before, to be safe) you hit 5 stacks. If you wait any longer, you will lose out on part of the proc, since starfall checks your stats on each star. Additionally, due to the 45 second ICD, you can only sync the proc up with SF on every third starfall.

My typical strategy is to wait for 4 stacks and pop starfall after I finish my current cast, then wait until I see 9 stacks pop up, and hit treants right after I finish my current cast.

Mortilia · 04/05/10, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Obligatory

@Zifrelm: As a fellow DFO user, it is my experience that you rarely need to worry about losing a starfall by waiting for a DFO proc to start your first one; most berserk timers are a flat 5-10 minutes, so there's no way to "lose" a starfall unless you wait over 40-50 seconds to cast the first one. And if you aren't running into the berserk timer, then it isn't too important to wring out every last ounce of damage, so you can just pop SF 4-5 seconds after the pull and then on cooldown after that.

Also, on a side note, with DFO, you should be trying to pop SF right when (or just before, to be safe) you hit 5 stacks. If you wait any longer, you will lose out on part of the proc, since starfall checks your stats on each star. Additionally, due to the 45 second ICD, you can only sync the proc up with SF on every third starfall.

My typical strategy is to wait for 4 stacks and pop starfall after I finish my current cast, then wait until I see 9 stacks pop up, and hit treants right after I finish my current cast.

Last time I checked, treants damage was also based on current SP, and not SP at the time you cast them.

I'll double check that tonight when I get home.

Zifrelm · 04/05/10, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Obligatory

Also, on a side note, with DFO, you should be trying to pop SF right when (or just before, to be safe) you hit 5 stacks.

Hm, okay. That's actually what I had tried first, but then changed my mind, thinking that it was only percentage-based damage buffs, e.g. Omen of Doom, that applied per-star. If SP is counted that way too, then I'll definitely switch back to 4-5 stacks.

I'd certainly be interested in anything you've found regarding Treants, Mortilia. I've tried watching their melee damage with and without casting at the end of a DFO proc, but it was also in the middle of a boss fight, so I couldn't gather anything conclusive.

Myllo · 04/06/10, 1:18 PM

Wrathful Gladiator's Idol of Steadfastness
119 for 10 seconds

If anyone has access to this idol, I was curious if the proc was off the incitial cast of moofire, and/or continues to proc off the dots following. I doubt it will prove better then the badge idol, but for certain scenerios I can see it's value.

Ex. Swap idols, hit MF, cast starfall (thinking deathwhisper with multiple adds would have a good output)
I doubt this idol would have any long term pve benefit, but for certain occasions, it may.

Mjoedgaard · 04/06/10, 9:34 PM

The idol is only initial cast of moonfire and is completly garbage

boomtilimoom · 04/07/10, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mortilia

Last time I checked, treants damage was also based on current SP, and not SP at the time you cast them.

I'll double check that tonight when I get home.

Any clarification on this that I might have missed? I know recently I have been holding off on casting FoN (if the situation allows it) until I'm reaching the top of my DFO stacks, or possibly when I get DFO and the ring proc at the same time.
If their damage is based on current SP as opposed to SP at the time of cast then it might be more beneficial to cast them as DFO comes off of cooldown, so they benefit from the proc as it stacks?

Starfox · 04/07/10, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by boomtilimoom

Any clarification on this that I might have missed? I know recently I have been holding off on casting FoN (if the situation allows it) until I'm reaching the top of my DFO stacks, or possibly when I get DFO and the ring proc at the same time.
If their damage is based on current SP as opposed to SP at the time of cast then it might be more beneficial to cast them as DFO comes off of cooldown, so they benefit from the proc as it stacks?

As treants are pets and not guardians like e.g. DK Gargoyle they will update their SP on the fly if the druids SP changes
Just get something with a proc/stacks, when up cast treants.
/dump UnitAttackPower("pet"), return values are BaseAP, BonusAP, NegativBonusAP
Rightclick SP buff away.
/dump UnitAttackPower("pet")
Notice that the BonusAP is less than before

Mortilia · 04/08/10, 11:59 AM

Sorry about not posting earlier, got distracted by stuff. I've tested on the target dummy, and the damage is noticibly bigger when popping a +SP trinket, and goes back down once the +SP is done. I use Sexy Cooldowns, and pop treants right before my trinket's cooldown is over. Treants last way longer than a trinket's proc, so that way I don't lose any extra damage.

I usually pop treants on a boss the moment he starts moving to the tank, which I feel is safer than putting something on the boss (even FF, as I've once gotten aggro casting that when all the tank's abilities missed on that first second).

copialinex · 04/09/10, 4:41 PM

I wanted to share an idea and know your opinion:

If you are over the Crit softcap, you have >60% crit chance on Starfire in raid environement.
I was wondering if the same clairvoyance we have with NG in order to proc Lunar (when we see NG, there is a 60% chance to proc Lunar) could be used before Solar (when we cast Sfire, there's a 60% chance to proc Solar) and if switching to Wr immediately after would be a dps gain.
I was trying to do Sf-Wr-Sf(Solar Proc)-Wr-Wr-Wr and I ended doing Sf-Wr-Sf(Solar Proc)-Wr-Sf-Wr-Wr-Wr because of the 1s Wr cast time and the queue system, losing all the purpose, so I'd try Sf-2xWr-Sf-2xWr.
This idea is very similar to "using IS to see if Solar procs", I'd trade the first Wr of every rotation with IS.

I know this is a huge effort in order to obtain a very minor dps gain (if any), but in a world where every bit is taken into account, could be useful to someone.

When I figure how to put this in Mr. Robot, I'll give it a shot, because theorycraft isn't something I'm very good at.

Talsh · 04/09/10, 5:22 PM

Edited, because I think I understand what you're asking now.

Basically, the reason we can anticipate lunar so well is because we can see essentially two NG's line up back to back, meaning two 60% chances to proc eclipse (which, correct me if I'm wrong, means there's an 84% chance to proc lunar eclipse when we see 2 NGs in a row). The maximum amount of certainty we have while proccing solar is 60%, and we can never do better.

As far as modeling whether or not trying to jump the gun on solar is worthwhile, it's hard to tell because as far as I know, as modeled by WrathCalcs, the DPET of a starfire attempting to proc solar eclipse is the same as the DPET of a starfire cast, say, during solar eclipse. Simulation would definitely be the best way to test this, but given Mr. Robot's priority language, I'm not sure it's possible using that tool.

Hyperion · 04/09/10, 9:48 PM

Edit: Wrong Thread

Mortilia · 04/09/10, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by copialinex

I wanted to share an idea and know your opinion:

If you are over the Crit softcap, you have >60% crit chance on Starfire in raid environement.
I was wondering if the same clairvoyance we have with NG in order to proc Lunar (when we see NG, there is a 60% chance to proc Lunar) could be used before Solar (when we cast Sfire, there's a 60% chance to proc Solar) and if switching to Wr immediately after would be a dps gain.

I played a bit with this, and the best way I found to get something to work is by casting starfire -> Wrath, and then watching for big yellow numbers above the mob's head (i.e. means I just crit). It seems to pop up a fraction of a second faster than either NG or Lunar eclipse, and by waiting to see that before I queue another wrath or starfire I can usually get it right with no or a very small window of not casting. I'm not sure how big of a damage improvement it is, though, considering it is easy to mess it up when I also have to watch for other stuff happening in the raid.

rh8452 · 04/10/10, 1:27 PM

With certain levels of haste, casting an extra wrath just as lunar procs is probably not a DPS loss of significance at all. If you assume good latency and not having to move, you can calculate the number of starfires you can cast under the lunar buff. Starfire's cast time being what it is, there's particular levels of haste where you'll cast the last lunar starfire and then have an amount of time left on lunar which is less than the cast time of NG starfire, meaning the next starfire is essentially non-lunar since the lunar buff will have fallen off before it lands.

The DPS loss of the extra wrath is a lot higher if your haste level means that that wrath costs you a lunar starfire.

Thus if constantly mistakenly casting the extra wrath is an issue for you due to reaction time, UI, latency or whatnot, adjusting your level of haste up or down via gems or the like to lessen the impact of this may actually increase your DPS slightly.

In my instance I value crit significantly higher than haste even over soft crit cap, because I get better eclipse clairvoyance, not to mention 4T10 scaling outside of lunar with crit (wrath), and starfall scaling with crit. Crit just continues to get better than haste for me as my gear improves, because when I reach a point where there'd be 0.5s left on lunar eclipse after the last starfire, adding more haste becomes less of a dps gain unless I add enough to have there be $starfire_cast_time left on eclipse, whereas adding more crit keeps me in eclipse more often and continues to boost starfall/wrath damage.

Vyshe · 04/13/10, 8:21 PM

I was just curious about the heroic Nibelung modeling in Team Robot. I had the 264 version but stopped using it when the proc was changed, but now I picked up the heroic Nibelung and I'm trying to figure out if it is worth trading in a huge amount of haste for 40 sp and some Val'kyr Protectors. Being a lazy Owl, bored with killing target dummys for hours, I decide to let Robot do my dirty work. The simulation (with full buffs) had me at ~12.7k dps with Nibelung(277) but only ~11.8k using my previous setup (Bonespike(264) / Spindle(277)). This confused me a little since I haven't really noticed a dps gain like that.

If I read the summary correctly Robot put it at around 6.9% of my total damage. My result from raiding with it so far puts it far lower. BQL (~1.5%), Valithria(~2.3%), Sindragosa(~2.7%), Professor(~4.5%). And that's chosing the best looking numbers. Averaging a ton of failed Sindragosa HC tries it comes out at a sad ~1.7%. I know all of those fights except Professor has a lot of damage, but I was under the impression that they self heal enough to stay alive on those fights, and I can't find any evidence of them dying in the WoR report. So now my questions are:

1. How is Nibelung modeled in Robot? Assuming you're not simulating a bunch of Val'kyrs running around, what numbers are used? Are they good numbers?

2. Are the Val'kyrs still dying on fights with heavy AoE?

I want it to be an upgrade, but right now I'm not sure. I have looked for some sort of definitive word on the staff's worth but not found anything so I'm grateful for any feedback or pointers to discussions I've missed that can help me get a better idea of it.

Barlee · 04/13/10, 8:59 PM

I noticed the other night in raid when we had a resto druid os boomkin help dps H saurfang 25 that my Imp FF would fall off the boss. I am fully talented Imp FF and so is he. He also would say that his IMp FF would also drop. Am i getting the Personal 3% crit buff if my FF falls off the target? Our ferals do not use FF. im just assuming that if one of our FF's is up then we both will get the 3% crit.

I also have been considering dropping leatherworking to pickup engineering for the haste to gloves and rocket boots for clutch situations. I would link the glove proc to my starfire so optimally i would have a fully hasted lunar proc. Current cast time on a Natures Graced starfire eclipsed is 1.9. Dropping leatherworking would mean i would loose 74 sp. Any boomies out ther loving their engineering???

The World of Warcraft Armory - �arley @ Spirestone - Profile sorry forgot to add that if needed