Might wanna add that information (about Treants) to the "Other Spells" section if for no other reason than to make it harder for people to miss. Plus if I want to know more about a spell, that's the logical place to look.
Completely didn't realize I posted that in the wrong thread. Man, I feel smart.
So the Treants will never Miss/Dodge for anyone who's hitcapped (at 9-10%)?
I think the devs have been pretty honest about the general unfinished state of things, even up to a few days ago; they're not going to suddenly have a lot more information just because the Twitter chat is going on.
The transparency is a blessing and not one we're usually afforded. I'm not trying to come off as harsh toward the devs in that regard. I simply have several questions that remain unanswered. At least we know they are addressing the Eclipse movement concerns.
So the Treants will never Miss/Dodge for anyone who's hitcapped (at 9-10%)?
I think the devs have been pretty honest about the general unfinished state of things, even up to a few days ago; they're not going to suddenly have a lot more information just because the Twitter chat is going on.
Yes, but no clue if target spellhit debuff counts towards it.
Hello.
Light the fuse.
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SimulationCraft Druid Guy
Ok I have been trying to figure this out before I regem my gear. Is it better to go for Improved FairyFire and go for soft capped hit rating or go for the hard cap hit rating for 441?
I am trying to pick up my DPS a bit. Also I just started using wrathClac, and it seems to be saying i should be doing more DPS than when I am doing toc heroic or something of that nature so could this maybe be a rotation issue. I use Insect Swarm, moonfire, wrath (untill eclipse procs), then starfire. Mixing in Insect swarm and wrath to keep their dots renewed.
I havn't done much testing with trees recently, but I know that at my current hit (slightly over 10% on gear) They do still miss, not often... but they do. Makes me think either Balance of Power or IFF doesn't affect them, but our need for 17% probably does.
I've been experimenting seeing how much hit I need to get on my gear so they won't miss, but I havn't collected enough extra hit gear yet to get a definite answer. I know that they still miss in raids for me, which is really frustrating, and unless my draenei dies during an encounter i'm usually above 18% hit fully buffed.
I havn't seen another hit coefficient for them in the last few pages, do we have a guess/definite answer on what it is?
Wouldn't it be easier to see what their hit rate is with no hit and then check what it is when hit capped? It would be a pretty simple process to check for the effects of Imp. Faerie Fire and Balance of Nature. Taking data points at several different values of hit would help to further clarify those results.
IFF is a debuff on the target which increases its chance to be hit by spell attacks. However, this does not add hit rating to your character specifically, so your spell hit rating on your character page will not be affected for the purposes of conversion to Treant hit rating, in addition to not granting Treant chance to hit checked when they actually swing at the boss. Treants presumably go by the spell hit rating present on your page plus BoP giving you 14%.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis is an entire WoL report for our 11/12 heroic GDKP where my moonkin alt (near 277 BiS) participated and was the only moonkin in the raid. For the entire raid, treants had 7% miss total (counting dodge/parries). During that GDKP I only cast them on trash a couple times so the results are pretty accurate.
Assuming the parries were naturally caused by treant positioning when cast (since I generally cannot place the target circle behind the boss if I am playing near max range, and they will swing at the boss while running to get behind it) or the boss turning around to place a debuff on a melee as they swing, they can be discounted, so about 1-1.5% of total avoided attacks are discountable as those attacks would have been parried regardless of my hit rating.
Because treant damage is so inconsequential, I see no advantage at all in increasing hit rating for their benefit. On many fights they are barely worth the GCD and I'm only casting them because they do more damage than a non-eclipsed wrath, or as a GCD used when I'm forced to move.
I have a question, I don't think I've seen it up here before so i will ask.
Did anyone notice if you lose dps standing on max range? I'm mainly thinking the traveltime on wrath here vs. the solar uptime? Because if you have ended your wrath cast at like 0.5 sek before the eclipse has worn out and the traveltime is more than 0.5 sek you can proc the lunar eclipse, but does that mean that you are losing 1 solar eclipsed wrath? Not sure how to explain it better than this...
just a thought
This was all a little while ago, but I remember talking about how Wrath travel time wouldn't affect the Eclipse cycle. And the sheet works under that assumption, even after considering including it.
Backsolving, I must have concluded at some point that Wrath checks for Eclipse when the cast completes, but I no longer remember how it was tested.
I believe what you are saying is that, if Wrath is cast before Solar Eclipse ends but lands after it ends, it will benefit from that Solar Eclipse . . . which seems logical. However, what seems strange to me as a counterpoint is that I'm near 100% that a Wrath cast within a Solar Eclipse but landing outside of that Eclipse can proc a Lunar Eclipse.
i.e. Wrath Cast, Solar Eclipse Ends, Moonfire cast, Moonfire hits, Wrath hits, Lunar Eclipse starts
That would seem counter to travel time having no effect on Wrath's damage. I'll have to get on a target dummy to take a look at relative Wrath damage and if I am correct on my perception of the above on Wrath proc'ing Lunar Eclipse when cast withing Solar but landing after.
EDIT: Built a quick Youtube vid that shows my perception/recollection of how a Wrath that finishes inside Solar but hits after Solar acts in terms of proc'ing Lunar:
However, the damage of that crit Wrath is so close to the Wraths that were completely cast and hit within Solar that I'd say damage is calculated when Wrath is cast but Eclipse procs are not determined until the spell hits. I don't say that off this sample of 1 -- I actually got 4 or 5 iterations of the same behavior -- this was just the one that most clearly showed Wrath finishing within Solar and hitting after. Even five is still a small sample size but, if the Wraths weren't benefitting, I think we could clearly see the 40% difference even in a small sample size.
I have a question, I don't think I've seen it up here before so i will ask.
Did anyone notice if you lose dps standing on max range?
Someone pointed out earlier in this thread that Starfall has a slightly smaller range than other spells due to its range being calculated from the center of your hitbox instead of from the edge like "normal" spells. You might want to check your logs for Starfall uptime to see if that is the case.
I believe what you are saying is that, if Wrath is cast before Solar Eclipse ends but lands after it ends, it will benefit from that Solar Eclipse . . . which seems logical. However, what seems strange to me as a counterpoint is that I'm near 100% that a Wrath cast within a Solar Eclipse but landing outside of that Eclipse can proc a Lunar Eclipse.
i.e. Wrath Cast, Solar Eclipse Ends, Moonfire cast, Moonfire hits, Wrath hits, Lunar Eclipse starts
That would seem counter to travel time having no effect on Wrath's damage. I'll have to get on a target dummy to take a look at relative Wrath damage and if I am correct on my perception of the above on Wrath proc'ing Lunar Eclipse when cast withing Solar but landing after.
EDIT: Built a quick Youtube vid that shows my perception/recollection of how a Wrath that finishes inside Solar but hits after Solar acts in terms of proc'ing Lunar:
However, the damage of that crit Wrath is so close to the Wraths that were completely cast and hit within Solar that I'd say damage is calculated when Wrath is cast but Eclipse procs are not determined until the spell hits. I don't say that off this sample of 1 -- I actually got 4 or 5 iterations of the same behavior -- this was just the one that most clearly showed Wrath finishing within Solar and hitting after. Even five is still a small sample size but, if the Wraths weren't benefitting, I think we could clearly see the 40% difference even in a small sample size.
I have also noticed this. The advantages are if you get a string of crits, you can anticipate with certainty that you will likely end up in lunar, and precast the starfire before hand. You could get burned, but unlikely. The problem is for those who are less adept at anticipating the crit based on NG, they will likely be spamming wrath a bit longer then needed. I like to be closer because it takes less of the guess work out, but there are fights like HLK P1 where that simply isn't going to happen.
It is simply another example where you can gamble a bit, and have to decide at what point the gamble is likely to be in your favor. For me, personally, any time I get consecutive NG procs off wrath after the solar phase hits 1 second on the debuff(2 seconds remaining), I switch to starfire.
So far as I have always played and understood, eclipse procs when the spell lands, therefore a wrath cast during solar which lands after the solar buff ends can proc lunar. Travel time can give a bit of advantage here as it's possible (when at near max range) for multiple wraths cast within solar to land outside it, enabling a prequeued starfire to benefit from the subsequently procced lunar. This is another situation which favors crit heavily over haste as well.
I believe they may have disabled this when they broke the Squawk and Awe functionality. It seems as though they have made it so that a spell under the effect of Eclipse isn't capable of producing a new Eclipse. I'm not sure exactly and it's been a while since I've tested it, but if memory serves, I believe that is how things work now.
I believe they may have disabled this when they broke the Squawk and Awe functionality. It seems as though they have made it so that a spell under the effect of Eclipse isn't capable of producing a new Eclipse. I'm not sure exactly and it's been a while since I've tested it, but if memory serves, I believe that is how things work now.
Err, no. The fix that broke SAA (technically, it was the name change that broke SAA, but oh well) simply forced the ICD of Lunar Eclipse back up to 15 seconds when Solar procced, and vice versa, rather than using the Eclipse buff as a prevention measure - much the same way that clicking a trinket forces a short cooldown on your other clicky trinkets, except less visible.
The best explanation for the interaction of Wrath's travel time with Eclipse is that self damage modifiers are calculated when casting finishes, while enemy damage modifiers are calculated when the spell lands. Eclipse can't proc if you don't hit or crit, so it must wait until the spell lands to check whether it will proc. For example, in pseudocode:
WRATHDATA wrath = {.damage = 1000, .critchance = .45, .hitchance = .83, .damagemodifier = 1.00};
OnSpellCastFinish(void)
{
if (spellJustFinished == wrath
{
if (SolarEclipseActive)
wrath.damageModifier *= 1.40;
if (balanceOfPower)
wrath.hitchance += .04;
if (MoonkinAura)
wrath.critchance += .05;
// etc.
}
}
OnSpellLands(void)
{
if (spellWhichLanded == wrath)
{
if (hasMisery)
wrath.hitchance += .03;
if (rand(0,1) < wrath.hitchance)
{
if (hasWinter'sChill)
wrath.critchance += .05;
if(rand(0,1) < wrath.critchance)
{
if ((timeSinceSolarEclipseProcced > 15.00) && (rand(0,1) < .6))
ProcLunarEclipse();
}
}
}
}
Not sure exactly how the fix for Nature's Grace factors in, but it's definitely the exception.
I believe what you are saying is that, if Wrath is cast before Solar Eclipse ends but lands after it ends, it will benefit from that Solar Eclipse . . . which seems logical. However, what seems strange to me as a counterpoint is that I'm near 100% that a Wrath cast within a Solar Eclipse but landing outside of that Eclipse can proc a Lunar Eclipse.
i.e. Wrath Cast, Solar Eclipse Ends, Moonfire cast, Moonfire hits, Wrath hits, Lunar Eclipse starts
That would seem counter to travel time having no effect on Wrath's damage. I'll have to get on a target dummy to take a look at relative Wrath damage and if I am correct on my perception of the above on Wrath proc'ing Lunar Eclipse when cast withing Solar but landing after.
EDIT: Built a quick Youtube vid that shows my perception/recollection of how a Wrath that finishes inside Solar but hits after Solar acts in terms of proc'ing Lunar:
However, the damage of that crit Wrath is so close to the Wraths that were completely cast and hit within Solar that I'd say damage is calculated when Wrath is cast but Eclipse procs are not determined until the spell hits. I don't say that off this sample of 1 -- I actually got 4 or 5 iterations of the same behavior -- this was just the one that most clearly showed Wrath finishing within Solar and hitting after. Even five is still a small sample size but, if the Wraths weren't benefitting, I think we could clearly see the 40% difference even in a small sample size.
This was exactly what i was looking for, thanks man. This will however also mean that standing on max range can hurt your starfires during lunar unless you know the exact traveltime for your wrathcasts. So basicly it will be easier rotationwise to be closer to the boss
I'm having a hard time believing the results I'm seeing from WrathCalcs. After applying all my stats and buffs and such I've checked the various uses of moonfire and insect swarm. What it is telling me is that my highest dps comes from not using IS at all, and only using MF with lunar eclipse. Given that my idol is stacking a crit buff on MF/IS tick it seems hard to believe that its in my best interests to let that buff fall off ever. Especially given that I am not yet at my lunar crit cap. Often enough I'll go the duration of an eclipse cool down without proc'ing the next eclipse.
Would you agree that I'm putting too much stock in the Wrathcalcs output and should instead be keeping up some dot at all times? Would you switch between MF and IS as appropriate or stick to MF the whole time?
Generally speaking, our DoTs are very, very weak. Moonfire without the starfire/moonfire glyphs would be as weak as insect swarm.
The reality is, saving insect swarm to be used when you have to do short burst movements, which tend to occur on most fights, it will benefit you in the long run.
That being said, letting your idol buff drop is never going to be in your best interest, so DoT if you notice the buff won't last until the next time you are allegedly supposed to cast moonfire.
Reality is, the mechanics of our DoTs, because one has frontloaded damage and the other has a hit debuff, are such that they scale poorly from the damage perspective. This won't be an issue next expansion, though.
WC doesn't actually account for potential Idol dropping. If it's telling you that best DPS is to keep MF once per cycle and not use IS at all, then hold as close to that as you can without dropping you buff.
I suppose this does actually imply that you need to watch your Vicious stack in order to DPS optimally, which is something we should probably talk about more.
Yea, I recognized that the damage from the DoT wasn't totally meaningless, but also wasn't enough to warrant interrupting the normal rotation. It was the idol proc that concerned me more as I actually need that crit to reach my lunar crit cap at the moment. Sad I know. I figured for the most part WrathCalcs was a good guideline but that adjustments would have to be made where logic demands.
In case you want to see the character sheet here is the link to WoW armory.
"Under the effect of Bloodlust, Wrath will gain very little DPS since it's usually so close to the 1s GCD minimum in the first place. The goal during Bloodlust is to use Lunar Eclipse as much as possible. As of 3.3, we can no longer cancel Solar during Bloodlust to make it possible to proc Lunar more quickly, so the spell rotation is largely unchanged. You should get at least one Lunar Eclipse during Bloodlust if you simply maintain your standard rotation; you should use your [Potion of Speed] at that point. If you know when Bloodlust is coming, remember to cast Force of Nature immediately beforehand.
Overall, our benefit from Bloodlust is much smaller than most classes' (roughly 10-12% more DPS for the duration), since only Starfire is significantly affected by the buff."
It is still true ?.Becasue i tested spam starfire tactic so many times and i always have more dps than your tactic.With nature's grace proc i m casting starfire 1.3
IF you can get Starfire down to 1.3 sec cast during Lust THEN:
Starfire spam for duration will work.
IF you can NOT get Starfire down to 1.3 sec cast during Lust THEN:
Follow standard Eclipse rotation.
If you used theoretical maximums, you could figure this out by comparing
Avg Non-Eclipsed Wrath*1.4*15 to get Wrath damage for those 15 seconds.
Then divide the above number by your Average Non-Eclipsed Starfire cast damage to get number of Starfire casts required to provide equal or greater damage. For instance, a bit of target dummy time to get a representative sample of non-Elicpsed Wrath and Starfire cast damage tells me my:
Average Non-Eclipsed Wrath = 6,827
Average Non-Eclipsed Starfire = 12,655
6827*1.4*15=143,378
145,635/12,655 = 11.33 Starfire casts to equate the same damage
15/11.33 = 1.32 Starfire cast speed required.
Reality is we just about never get in a perfect 15 Wraths into a Solar. However, if we said 12 or 13 Wraths and did the math based on that, it doesn't fundamentally change. Right around 1.3 cast speed is a good place to call it.
07/16/10, 10:25 PM
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