Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 14

Videl · 04/21/10, 3:35 PM

Even with an early heroism getting in any kind of significant time in a second lunar eclipse has more to do with luck than anything else. With 30 seconds pretty much guaranteed to be in eclipse no matter what, a best case scenario where the shaman is watching you to hit hero right as you proc lunar eclipse only leaves you 10 seconds for 2 pre-eclipse phases and whatever time you're going to get in that second lunar.
Most of the time when you get significant time in a second hero'd lunar eclipse it is because you procced your first one particularly quickly and used some of it before heroism started.

Chtoun · 04/22/10, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Royalite

I was wondering if there was any advice on how to cyclone targets during DeathWispher HM.

At the moment I am clicking the hostile target and pressing a key bind. I would absolute love a raid frame mouse bind. I use Vuhdo for raid frames and their mouse binds for "hostile" targets isn't working on the mind controlled targets.

I don't know if the grid/clique combo has the capability to distinguish between friendly and hostile. Cause I still want to use my left mouse button to cast a nourish on the friendly but on a hositle target the left mouse button would cast cyclone.

If that can't be done, I was thinking about using a mouse over macro instead of the mouse-click-target-plus-key-bind for faster reactions.

Would this work? (Copied from another thread)
#showtooltip Cyclone
/cast [target=mouseover,exists] [] Cyclone

Anyone have experience with this? Or have any better ideas for fast target and casting of MCed targets?

If you have Decursive, a Ctrl+Left-click on the MC'ed player's mini icon will cast cyclone

Tofuu · 04/23/10, 2:13 PM

I want to point out one thing that I don't think have been mentioned in this thread that I've recently noticed.

if you have the Nibulung staff, before the pull, you can hurricane until you get a valk and start the fight with one. This will significantly up the value of the staff in most situations. It is pretty consistent for me to get a valk within the 2nd or 3rd hurricane.

let me know what you think about this or if this has been mentioned before.

• Hamlet · 04/23/10, 2:51 PM

I guess there's no reason not to do it. But it seems the odds of getting one soon before the pull aren't that great. You do have a reasonably good chance of getting one sometime in the 30s before the pull that will do at least some damage--so I suppose it's one of the things you can do if you're being really obsessive about squeezing out damage.

Dendrek · 04/23/10, 3:30 PM

I've seen some speculation regarding the proper use of Starfall and Treants in the balance rotation, but I wonder if I can get some conclusive answers to a few questions I have:

1. What is the best time to use Starfall and Focus at the pull? A few example rotations I think might be viable:

FF, IS, MF, Starfall, Focus, WR -> Eclipse
FF, Starfall, IS, MF, Focus, WR -> Eclipse
Focus, FF, Starfall, IS, MF, WR -> Eclipse (I'm inclined to think using Focus before the pull is not a very good idea)
FF, IS, MF, Starfall, WR, Focus, WR -> Eclipse (if the first WR didn't proc eclipse)* This is the one I've been leaning towards using.

This all assumes it's wise to use either ability at the start of the fight.

2. As for the casting of Starfall once its CD is back up during a normal rotation, I believe the general advice given is to use Starfall at any time that it's up if it's a good time during the fight to use it. Are there "best times" to use it though? For example, would I be wrong to assume that a great time to cast it is right at the end of a Lunar Eclipse (assuming another Starfire could not be cast within the last seconds of that Eclipse)? I figure Starfall has a high chance to proc Nature's Grace, so it will help to insure that my Starfires are hasted going into the Pre-Solar phase.

Arythorn · 04/23/10, 3:34 PM

RE: DW Cyclones

#showtooltip Cyclone
/cast [target=mouseover,help][target=target] Cyclone

Replace your default Cyclone bind with this macro. You can then hover over a raid frame and bind it or, if there is a big, obvious, giant MC target next to you, just hover over the player in the game world. This last bit actually has saved me a few times when I've seen a melee DPS bee-lining for me. I don't have to take the time to correlate them to a raid frame -- just hover over them with the mouse and bind that macro.

Now, to ask a question -- I'm resto main spec but am going Moonkin for HLK 10 and 25 attempts. I have access to pretty much everything from a gear perspective and am going to start focusing on getting the right ratio of hit, crit, haste, etc. My current setup is definitely out of whack. I've built the list of what I'm going for and am fine on it all except for trinkets. I'm not quite sure how to rank [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich], [Muradin's Spyglass], and [Reign of the Dead].

Assuming a 100 sec internal GCD, Phylactery beats Muradin's in principle on both Crit and average SP -- though the randomness of when it procs might not always be very ideal in terms of where you are in your rotation, cooldowns, etc. Something to be said for an essentially always-up static amount of SP that Muradin's provides. Reign is much harder for me to evaluate though I've seen people that have access to all 3 trinkets tooling around with double-Reign. Maybe their relative value is exactly in that order I linked them but curious to hear feedback.

EDIT: [Dislodged Foreign Object] is one I hadn't really considered but probably worth adding to the list.

Barlee · 04/23/10, 3:53 PM

[quote=Dendrek;1628665]I've seen some speculation regarding the proper use of Starfall and Treants in the balance rotation, but I wonder if I can get some conclusive answers to a few questions I have:

As for timing on usage of trenants and starfall: one thing to understand is that you current spell power is directly related to how hard the starfall will hit as you sp grows so does the damage done with starfall. Once the procs dissapear and you starfall is still up it will now hit for the lower amount of spell power. As for you trenants they are a bit different once you release them they use the current amount of sp for their duration.

currently i use DFO and Phylactery and my rotation starts as
FF > wrath (get earth and moon up) >MF >IS>WRATH till lunar >SF

While this is occuring i may pop both cd's depending on my procs. Dfo procs i pop starfall on the 5th stack (to ensure full time proc to starfall) and i will pop trenants at the 9th stack of DFO and hope and pray Phylacter pops during this whole process

In the end i think its really a player prefernece on when to pop cd's but imo these times are best for optimal dps with my current gear setup

Dendrek · 04/23/10, 4:11 PM

You mention Treant's damage being based on the druid's SP when they are cast.

Originally Posted by Starfox

As treants are pets and not guardians like e.g. DK Gargoyle they will update their SP on the fly if the druids SP changes
Just get something with a proc/stacks, when up cast treants.
/dump UnitAttackPower("pet"), return values are BaseAP, BonusAP, NegativBonusAP
Rightclick SP buff away.
/dump UnitAttackPower("pet")
Notice that the BonusAP is less than before

If this is correct, as I suspect it is, then perhaps your argument about when to use Starfall also applies to using Treants.

gannonjf · 04/24/10, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by Dendrek

You mention Treant's damage being based on the druid's SP when they are cast.

If this is correct, as I suspect it is, then perhaps your argument about when to use Starfall also applies to using Treants.

You want to try and line them up with trinket procs, but obviously you aren't going to wait a long time. IF your trinket(s) are about to proc in the next 15secs or so it's worth waiting. New Squawk and Awe has trinket support built in for DFO and Phaly so it might be worthwhile to get. I thought I would hate it for tracking my Phaly but I have since changed my mind and very much like being able to see how soon it will be til it's off CD.

art3d · 04/24/10, 6:57 AM

[quote=Barlee;1628692]

Originally Posted by Dendrek

I've seen some speculation regarding the proper use of Starfall and Treants in the balance rotation, but I wonder if I can get some conclusive answers to a few questions I have:

As for timing on usage of trenants and starfall: one thing to understand is that you current spell power is directly related to how hard the starfall will hit as you sp grows so does the damage done with starfall. Once the procs dissapear and you starfall is still up it will now hit for the lower amount of spell power. As for you trenants they are a bit different once you release them they use the current amount of sp for their duration.

currently i use DFO and Phylactery and my rotation starts as
FF > wrath (get earth and moon up) >MF >IS>WRATH till lunar >SF

While this is occuring i may pop both cd's depending on my procs. Dfo procs i pop starfall on the 5th stack (to ensure full time proc to starfall) and i will pop trenants at the 9th stack of DFO and hope and pray Phylacter pops during this whole process

In the end i think its really a player prefernece on when to pop cd's but imo these times are best for optimal dps with my current gear setup

I am relativly new to boomkin, but here's what I found useful for squeezing in just a little bit more dps:

2 secs before pull I treant/haste pot, as target becomes attackable wrath>FF>wrath>MF>wrath till lunar>SF
I try to use wrath travel time to my advantage, the only time I'm in bad shape is when first wrath procs eclipse, and even then I only loose a fraction of a second of lunar (still good dps-wise as that means I got an eclipse early) and that is really dependant on how close to the boss I am standing. As fight goes on, I only refresh MF as solar ends or when I'm on the move and Starfall/Treants is on CD and IS has more than 6s. I try to cast IS/Starfall whenever I'm moving regardless of current eclipses, and if I was standing on one spot whole time (no one really cares about such fights these days) I would Starfall as lunar ends, to minimize unlucky RNG and I would never cast IS.

I really envy your trinkets ( i'm running with 245 Reign of the dead and 264 Muradin's Spyglass and my favorite 277 Trauma

). But I am still unsure if speeding up a stack of DFO would be a benefit to getting a critical SF earlier, as for Phylactery with the rotation i posted the SP proc would be closer to lunar eclips. That's how i like to dps on the pull

What bugs me, is what happens during bloodlust/heroism. Currently, I try spaming 1.4s SF, even during solar, keeping MF uptime 100% to make sure i get maximum crit chance, casting wraths as solar ends to proc another lunar and then going back to SF. I can't really confirm that is a dps gain, and I am still unsure if I should cast Starfall during noneclipsed SF spam while heroism/lust is up to protect me from getting 2 noncrits in a row and loosing NG.

Another question I have, has anyone tested Nibelung(H) on Lich King (H) ? The only log I could find was Lappe of Paragon and it wasn't doing really strong for him there. I still can't calculate what is our BiS weapon. WrathCalcs suggests that is Nibelung, but if I use numbers I get from logs to evaluate Val'Kyr effect, Frozen Bonespike + Spindle seem to be better. And you get extra crit and haste to smooth out all the proc times.

PS: forgive my bad english, and as a sidenote - this extreme min maxing fades away when you spend 2-3 seconds attacking noone or wrong target, and minimizing movement during fight gains most dps

gannonjf · 04/24/10, 6:59 PM

[quote=art3d;1629150]

Originally Posted by Barlee

Another question I have, has anyone tested Nibelung(H) on Lich King (H) ? The only log I could find was Lappe of Paragon and it wasn't doing really strong for him there. I still can't calculate what is our BiS weapon. WrathCalcs suggests that is Nibelung, but if I use numbers I get from logs to evaluate Val'Kyr effect, Frozen Bonespike + Spindle seem to be better. And you get extra crit and haste to smooth out all the proc times.

The Valk's do not scale with the ICC buff so any strength they had over MH/OH or other staffs of the same ilevel is going away quickly. My 277 Nibelung is a toy for me now and I run with the 277 Dying Light.

Draugir · 04/25/10, 12:05 AM

Using Wrath Calcs with a full best in slot 277 gear setup, including varying amounts of the ICC damage buff:

Heroic Nibelung = 525 dps
Nibelung, no proc: 12450 dps
Nibelung: 12974
Nibelung, 5%: 13597
Nibelung, 10%: 14220
Nibelung, 15%: 14842
Nibelung, 20%: 15465
Nibelung, 25%: 16087
Nibelung, 30%: 16710

Comparison is Royal Scepter of Terenas II (H) with Shadow Silk Spindle (H).
Terenas: 13125 dps
Terenas, 5%: 13781
Terenas, 10%: 14437
Terenas, 15%: 15093
Terenas, 20%: 15750
Terenas, 25%: 16406
Terenas, 30%: 17062

So the disparity increases from ~150 dps to 350 as the buff increases, or 1% to 2% difference.

Obviously the true value of the Nibelung proc differs on a per-fight basis.

spiritryu · 04/25/10, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by Draugir

Using Wrath Calcs with a full best in slot 277 gear setup, including varying amounts of the ICC damage buff:

Heroic Nibelung = 525 dps
Nibelung, no proc: 12450 dps
Nibelung: 12974
Nibelung, 5%: 13597
Nibelung, 10%: 14220
Nibelung, 15%: 14842
Nibelung, 20%: 15465
Nibelung, 25%: 16087
Nibelung, 30%: 16710

Comparison is Royal Scepter of Terenas II with Shadow Silk Spindle, both ilvl 277.
Terenas: 13125 dps
Terenas, 5%: 13781
Terenas, 10%: 14437
Terenas, 15%: 15093
Terenas, 20%: 15750
Terenas, 25%: 16406
Terenas, 30%: 17062

So the disparity increases from ~150 dps to 350 as the buff increases, or 1% to 2% difference.

Obviously the true value of the Nibelung proc differs on a per-fight basis.

Did you mean the 271 version of the Terenas since that's the one the majority of players will have access to?

Woofy · 04/25/10, 4:18 PM

I currently have Tailoring and Enchanting, but I'm looking at Engineering a lot more favorably lately. I see whatever increase it will give me being a potentially large benefit(340 haste on 1 min cooldown, rocket boots(and a better boot enchant),frag belt). I've therefore decided that I want to grab it, if nothing else just to try it out. My question is:

How does Engineering stack up with Tailoring in that having both would sacrifice the Engineering 27 spellpower enchant? Is it worth keeping both over Enchanting, because the proc from Tailoring is so powerful, or would I lose too much from the loss of Engineering's cloak enchant?

I suppose it boils down to whether Engineering(minus the Engi cloak enchant) plus the Tailoring cloak enchant is better than Engineering(with the Engi cloak enchant) plus the 46 spellpower from Enchanting.

First time poster, thanks for whatever help I get.

• Hamlet · 04/25/10, 5:33 PM

I've been a bit behind lately due to LK H progression + exams + Cataclysm stuff + SC2. But one of the last things I was looking at on this topic was Engineering potentially being slightly better than other professions. I think there's a lot of evidence is might be the case.