Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 20

Pythanamus · 07/14/10, 2:45 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

3.3.5 gear:
[Phaseshifter's Bracers] and [Cloak of Burning Dusk] are now BIS (technically, [Bracers of Fiery Night] are minutely better, but I can't imagine anyone will worry about it).

[Charred Twilight Scale]: the proc winds up just a touch under DFO (about even with Phylactery), assuming 10/55 uptime (detailed numbers here: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-m..._5_a/#Trinkets ). The trinket is basically dead even with DFO, which will make it and DFO the two best trinkets for well-geared players over the crit cap.

e: should note that 45s ICD on CTS hasn't technically been confirmed yet. But I'd loot it if it drops.

In endgame gear i doubt those 2 trinkets will be bis together, DFO and CTS. Lets asume that nowadays the good geared moonkins are running with something like 900 - 950 haste rating. this meens that they are almost hard capped on haste with wrath even without NG up(my calcs for wrath at 1 sec was 984 haste rating apx. without ng). For anyone to get an extra starfire during lunar they need shitloads of haste, i and don't see that happening with CTS tbh. it's just for faster starfires, nothing else.
I don't see why we don't want to get some crit instead of all that haste. Crit is proccing everything you want for dpsing, it's not like arcane mages where missiles proc from nonecrits blast aswell. We need the crit for proccing the eclipses. and with crit our solar becomes a lot stronger. anyways I'd prefer 3 % crit on my wrath instead of going for ng downtime haste rating, and with ng up having wrath at 0.8 sek.

Lilija · 07/14/10, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Pythanamus

In endgame gear i doubt those 2 trinkets will be bis together, DFO and CTS. Lets asume that nowadays the good geared moonkins are running with something like 900 - 950 haste rating. this meens that they are almost hard capped on haste with wrath even without NG up(my calcs for wrath at 1 sec was 984 haste rating apx. without ng). For anyone to get an extra starfire during lunar they need shitloads of haste, i and don't see that happening with CTS tbh. it's just for faster starfires, nothing else.
I don't see why we don't want to get some crit instead of all that haste. Crit is proccing everything you want for dpsing, it's not like arcane mages where missiles proc from nonecrits blast aswell. We need the crit for proccing the eclipses. and with crit our solar becomes a lot stronger. anyways I'd prefer 3 % crit on my wrath instead of going for ng downtime haste rating, and with ng up having wrath at 0.8 sek.

There is one more problem with CTS + DFO combo. Even with 100% BiS gear, with those 2 trinkets is seems kinda hard to keep the crit soft cap. I did play around with Rawr a bit and with full BiS, those 2 trinkets and all yellow sockets with sp+crit I hardly reach the soft cap (unfortunatly Rawr by itself doesn't work that well with soft caps).

So in perfect situation it might be BiS but I would say it should be like last choise BiS item.

Yijiao · 07/14/10, 1:20 PM

That is another thing I love about Phylactery. Proc rate is really high, so it is extremely consistent in terms of when it actually procs. Especially since it procs off languish as well.

Also, the burst SP is always up for treants, and the 1200 SP for treants is an incredible increase in DPS. I doubt the proc rate is lower than DFO as I believe DFO is 10% and it wouldn't be much lower, I think it was just bad RNG.

But, overall, I tend to agree. Phylactery is highly undervalued relative to the others. It freed up gearing choices that allow me to stay well about crit soft cap.

I don't necessarily enjoy the mechanics of DFO in that our moving DPS is nonexistant so any time that we have to move during the back end of the proc, it is all but worthless.

aceofsween · 07/14/10, 1:30 PM

Also, the burst SP is always up for treants, and the 1200 SP for treants is an incredible increase in DPS.

The coefficient on Force of Nature is so abysmal that this amounts to a whopping 467 damage increase over 30 seconds or about 15.5 DPS.

• Hamlet · 07/14/10, 2:42 PM

Also, proc rate of trinkets has essentially no effect on their actual uptime, compared to ICD. One could say there's an effect on "consistency," I guess, but I don't see how this has any impact except psychologically.

Yijiao · 07/16/10, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

The coefficient on Force of Nature is so abysmal that this amounts to a whopping 467 damage increase over 30 seconds or about 15.5 DPS.

I've been testing this on the dummy without any other raid buffs and the difference with just the single trinket proc'd between the ten tests of each is somewhere between

Not proc'd:

25-27k damage total, highest being 26882 with 81% hit rate, 17% glance, 2% crit and 0 misses.

Proc'd:

31-33k damage total with the exception of one 29800 with a 48% hit rate and 7 misses. Highest was 33, 217 with 72% hit rate, 20% glancing, 6% crit, 1 miss.

It is unlikely that the total damage bonus is only 468...I have had one set of treants in a raid with both trinkets popped without heroism do about 90k damage. The bonus is pretty substantial.

EDIT TO SAY: There was some variable in number of hits attempted, ranging from 52 to 57. I am not sure what causes that, but it was random across both groups.

EDIT AGAIN TO SAY: I test with no gear on in moonkin form (90 Spell Power) and the damage done was about 17 thousand...in my normal setup with gear(3600 in moonkin), it appears a 9k increase is normal, so the 1200 SP proc should be another 3k before boss debuffs. So while not as bursty as I think, it is certainly more than the 500 damage total that you thought.

aceofsween · 07/16/10, 2:40 PM

I'll be honest, I pulled my data straight from WrathCalcs (at the moment I can't do any testing to verify). However, I have never seen any noticeable difference in damage from Treants due to spellpower procs, but I will admit that it was never something I followed closely either. It may just be that WrathCalcs seriously undervalues the effect of Spellpower on treants.

EDIT: After doing a few simulations with the Team Robot Simulator I was getting consistent results of ~3 damage per Spellpower per cast. That would make Phylactery give ~2400 damage assuming it procs when there are at least 20 seconds left on the Treants duration. I wouldn't consider that a great increase really (80 DPS), but I suppose every little bit counts.

EDIT: You computed +1200 SP for treants over 30 seconds, but Phylactery only lasts 20 seconds which is why you got more damage (~3000 vs ~2400) even though you were using a lower coefficient (~2.5 vs ~3).

Yijiao · 07/16/10, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

I'll be honest, I pulled my data straight from WrathCalcs (at the moment I can't do any testing to verify). However, I have never seen any noticeable difference in damage from Treants due to spellpower procs, but I will admit that it was never something I followed closely either. It may just be that WrathCalcs seriously undervalues the effect of Spellpower on treants.

EDIT: After doing a few simulations with the Team Robot Simulator I was getting consistent results of ~3 damage per Spellpower per cast. That would make Phylactery give ~2400 damage assuming it procs when there are at least 20 seconds left on the Treants duration. I wouldn't consider that a great increase really (80 DPS), but I suppose every little bit counts.

I do have 1 point in brambles, don't know what effect that has. That being said, I usually save treants on most fights as the first option when moving when the things are proc'd, so compared to the other options, it is the best choice. I will rarely interrupt an eclipse for it, but it almost certainly gets more use than either DoT from the SP buff, granted, you can usually get all three.

The main point of both items is if you can sync starfall to get full Phylactery buff and 6-10 buffs of DFO, it gets a bit ridiculous, with the ICC buff, I have seen the single target portion get to 10k.

As far as the brambles point goes, since OFs nerf, I havent found practically anywhere useful to put it for single target, but I could reinvest a point into hurricane/typhoon damage.

EDIT TO SAY: I was under the impression that the bonus was based on when the treants were cast and stayed that number regardless of what came after. I don't see how it could be otherwise. I could be wrong, though.

• Hamlet · 07/16/10, 3:32 PM

You know, I'm not sure that I ever actually tested the Treants' coefficient myself. I think it's one of the few things that's sitting in the sheet untouched from when I took it over from Adoriele. If someone could do a solid test, that would be good.

Erdluf · 07/16/10, 6:30 PM

Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

Has a script that added (this was pre-LK, so it might be broken) a pet bar to your character sheet for treants. I'm pretty sure they used that to get the numbers in simulationcraft.

.57 AP/SP = .57*3/14 = .12 DPS/SP before Haste and Armor

Here is their code (I think this is for a single treant).

0.57 AP/SP
26/17 Expertise per spell hit
Melee hit = spell hit

    main_hand_weapon.min_dmg    = 340;
    main_hand_weapon.max_dmg    = 340;
    main_hand_weapon.damage     = ( main_hand_weapon.min_dmg + main_hand_weapon.max_dmg ) / 2;
    main_hand_weapon.swing_time = 1.8;
  }
  virtual void init_base()
  {
    pet_t::init_base();

    attribute_base[ ATTR_STRENGTH  ] = 331;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_AGILITY   ] = 113;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_STAMINA   ] = 361;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_INTELLECT ] = 65;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_SPIRIT    ] = 109;

    base_attack_power = -20;
    initial_attack_power_per_strength = 2.0;

    melee = new melee_t( this );
  }
  virtual double composite_attack_power() SC_CONST
  {
    double ap = pet_t::composite_attack_power();
    ap += 0.57 * owner -> composite_spell_power( SCHOOL_MAX );
    return ap;
  }
  virtual double composite_attack_hit() SC_CONST
  {
    return owner -> composite_spell_hit();
  }
  virtual double composite_attack_expertise() SC_CONST
  {
    return owner -> composite_spell_hit() * 26.0 / 17.0;
  }

Starfox · 07/16/10, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

Has a script that added (this was pre-LK, so it might be broken) a pet bar to your character sheet for treants. I'm pretty sure they used that to get the numbers in simulationcraft.

.57 AP/SP = .57*3/14 = .12 DPS/SP before Haste and Armor

Here is their code (I think this is for a single treant).

0.57 AP/SP
26/17 Expertise per spell hit
Melee hit = spell hit

I used exactly this script to get the scaling back in the days.

Simulationcraft has the values for one treant, but it just gives it a *3 damage modifier, less events for the engine to take care of.
It is also important to note that treants in fact scale with 1dps ~ 14 AP (e.g. DK ghoul does not scale with 1/14AP).
Also on the treant topic, I have posted this I think twice in this thread, the only thing you should time your treants with is bloodlust, because the the AP-from-SP is updeated every time it changes on the druid.

• Hamlet · 07/16/10, 9:22 PM

Yeah, that point gets made frequently about spellpower buffs; it's a common misconception. I added it to the guide recently (but that only matters for people who dig through the really detailed description of all the talents).

Bloodlust and Battle Shout, right?

Starfox · 07/16/10, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Yeah, that point gets made frequently about spellpower buffs; it's a common misconception. I added it to the guide recently (but that only matters for people who dig through the really detailed description of all the talents).

Bloodlust and Battle Shout, right?

Yea, those are the biggest by far, no clue if GotW adds more damage than you lose from the gcd

• Hamlet · 07/16/10, 9:43 PM

It looks like the scaling in WC is off by a factor of 10, and doesn't take into account misses?

It uses 0.057/14*1.7 for the SP coefficient of the damage per hit, and then 30/1.7*3 hits per summon.

So
1) I should change that 0.57?

2) Chance to miss is 8-spellhit? (spellhit% excluding talents? Or hit rating?)
Chance to dodge is 6.5 - spellhit%*26/17 (again, % or rating?)?

I don't really remember my melee mechanics at the moment.

Starfox · 07/16/10, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

It looks like the scaling in WC is off by a factor of 10, and doesn't take into account misses?

It uses 0.057/14*1.7 for the SP coefficient of the damage per hit, and then 30/1.7*3 hits per summon.

So
1) I should change that 0.57?

2) Chance to miss is 8-spellhit? (spellhit% excluding talents? Or hit rating?)
Chance to dodge is 6.5 - spellhit%*26/17 (again, % or rating?)?

I don't really remember my melee mechanics at the moment.

ad 1) Yes
ad 2) That's how SC handles it, I assume it is this way ingame :o