Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 21

aceofsween · 07/16/10, 10:09 PM

Might wanna add that information (about Treants) to the "Other Spells" section if for no other reason than to make it harder for people to miss. Plus if I want to know more about a spell, that's the logical place to look.

Completely didn't realize I posted that in the wrong thread. Man, I feel smart.

• Hamlet · 07/16/10, 10:17 PM

So the Treants will never Miss/Dodge for anyone who's hitcapped (at 9-10%)?

I think the devs have been pretty honest about the general unfinished state of things, even up to a few days ago; they're not going to suddenly have a lot more information just because the Twitter chat is going on.

aceofsween · 07/16/10, 10:23 PM

The transparency is a blessing and not one we're usually afforded. I'm not trying to come off as harsh toward the devs in that regard. I simply have several questions that remain unanswered. At least we know they are addressing the Eclipse movement concerns.

Starfox · 07/16/10, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

So the Treants will never Miss/Dodge for anyone who's hitcapped (at 9-10%)?

I think the devs have been pretty honest about the general unfinished state of things, even up to a few days ago; they're not going to suddenly have a lot more information just because the Twitter chat is going on.

Yes, but no clue if target spellhit debuff counts towards it.

guesswhoready · 07/19/10, 8:31 AM

Ok I have been trying to figure this out before I regem my gear. Is it better to go for Improved FairyFire and go for soft capped hit rating or go for the hard cap hit rating for 441?

I am trying to pick up my DPS a bit. Also I just started using wrathClac, and it seems to be saying i should be doing more DPS than when I am doing toc heroic or something of that nature so could this maybe be a rotation issue. I use Insect Swarm, moonfire, wrath (untill eclipse procs), then starfire. Mixing in Insect swarm and wrath to keep their dots renewed.

What do you guys think.

jesklash · 07/20/10, 1:05 PM

I havn't done much testing with trees recently, but I know that at my current hit (slightly over 10% on gear) They do still miss, not often... but they do. Makes me think either Balance of Power or IFF doesn't affect them, but our need for 17% probably does.

• Hamlet · 07/20/10, 1:06 PM

It would be very strange for a melee attack to need 17%. What's the source on the 1%:1% conversion?

jesklash · 07/20/10, 1:13 PM

I've been experimenting seeing how much hit I need to get on my gear so they won't miss, but I havn't collected enough extra hit gear yet to get a definite answer. I know that they still miss in raids for me, which is really frustrating, and unless my draenei dies during an encounter i'm usually above 18% hit fully buffed.

I havn't seen another hit coefficient for them in the last few pages, do we have a guess/definite answer on what it is?

aceofsween · 07/20/10, 1:19 PM

Wouldn't it be easier to see what their hit rate is with no hit and then check what it is when hit capped? It would be a pretty simple process to check for the effects of Imp. Faerie Fire and Balance of Nature. Taking data points at several different values of hit would help to further clarify those results.

rh8452 · 07/26/10, 2:12 PM

IFF would not affect treants.

IFF is a debuff on the target which increases its chance to be hit by spell attacks. However, this does not add hit rating to your character specifically, so your spell hit rating on your character page will not be affected for the purposes of conversion to Treant hit rating, in addition to not granting Treant chance to hit checked when they actually swing at the boss. Treants presumably go by the spell hit rating present on your page plus BoP giving you 14%.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis is an entire WoL report for our 11/12 heroic GDKP where my moonkin alt (near 277 BiS) participated and was the only moonkin in the raid. For the entire raid, treants had 7% miss total (counting dodge/parries). During that GDKP I only cast them on trash a couple times so the results are pretty accurate.

Assuming the parries were naturally caused by treant positioning when cast (since I generally cannot place the target circle behind the boss if I am playing near max range, and they will swing at the boss while running to get behind it) or the boss turning around to place a debuff on a melee as they swing, they can be discounted, so about 1-1.5% of total avoided attacks are discountable as those attacks would have been parried regardless of my hit rating.

Because treant damage is so inconsequential, I see no advantage at all in increasing hit rating for their benefit. On many fights they are barely worth the GCD and I'm only casting them because they do more damage than a non-eclipsed wrath, or as a GCD used when I'm forced to move.

Pythanamus · 07/27/10, 6:03 AM

I have a question, I don't think I've seen it up here before so i will ask.
Did anyone notice if you lose dps standing on max range? I'm mainly thinking the traveltime on wrath here vs. the solar uptime? Because if you have ended your wrath cast at like 0.5 sek before the eclipse has worn out and the traveltime is more than 0.5 sek you can proc the lunar eclipse, but does that mean that you are losing 1 solar eclipsed wrath? Not sure how to explain it better than this...
just a thought

• Hamlet · 07/27/10, 7:19 PM

This was all a little while ago, but I remember talking about how Wrath travel time wouldn't affect the Eclipse cycle. And the sheet works under that assumption, even after considering including it.

Backsolving, I must have concluded at some point that Wrath checks for Eclipse when the cast completes, but I no longer remember how it was tested.

Arythorn · 07/28/10, 9:07 AM

I believe what you are saying is that, if Wrath is cast before Solar Eclipse ends but lands after it ends, it will benefit from that Solar Eclipse . . . which seems logical. However, what seems strange to me as a counterpoint is that I'm near 100% that a Wrath cast within a Solar Eclipse but landing outside of that Eclipse can proc a Lunar Eclipse.

i.e. Wrath Cast, Solar Eclipse Ends, Moonfire cast, Moonfire hits, Wrath hits, Lunar Eclipse starts

That would seem counter to travel time having no effect on Wrath's damage. I'll have to get on a target dummy to take a look at relative Wrath damage and if I am correct on my perception of the above on Wrath proc'ing Lunar Eclipse when cast withing Solar but landing after.

EDIT: Built a quick Youtube vid that shows my perception/recollection of how a Wrath that finishes inside Solar but hits after Solar acts in terms of proc'ing Lunar:

YouTube - Wrath Damage Calcs

However, the damage of that crit Wrath is so close to the Wraths that were completely cast and hit within Solar that I'd say damage is calculated when Wrath is cast but Eclipse procs are not determined until the spell hits. I don't say that off this sample of 1 -- I actually got 4 or 5 iterations of the same behavior -- this was just the one that most clearly showed Wrath finishing within Solar and hitting after. Even five is still a small sample size but, if the Wraths weren't benefitting, I think we could clearly see the 40% difference even in a small sample size.

Rautalanka · 07/28/10, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pythanamus

I have a question, I don't think I've seen it up here before so i will ask.
Did anyone notice if you lose dps standing on max range?

Someone pointed out earlier in this thread that Starfall has a slightly smaller range than other spells due to its range being calculated from the center of your hitbox instead of from the edge like "normal" spells. You might want to check your logs for Starfall uptime to see if that is the case.

Yijiao · 07/28/10, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

I believe what you are saying is that, if Wrath is cast before Solar Eclipse ends but lands after it ends, it will benefit from that Solar Eclipse . . . which seems logical. However, what seems strange to me as a counterpoint is that I'm near 100% that a Wrath cast within a Solar Eclipse but landing outside of that Eclipse can proc a Lunar Eclipse.

i.e. Wrath Cast, Solar Eclipse Ends, Moonfire cast, Moonfire hits, Wrath hits, Lunar Eclipse starts

That would seem counter to travel time having no effect on Wrath's damage. I'll have to get on a target dummy to take a look at relative Wrath damage and if I am correct on my perception of the above on Wrath proc'ing Lunar Eclipse when cast withing Solar but landing after.

EDIT: Built a quick Youtube vid that shows my perception/recollection of how a Wrath that finishes inside Solar but hits after Solar acts in terms of proc'ing Lunar:

YouTube - Wrath Damage Calcs

However, the damage of that crit Wrath is so close to the Wraths that were completely cast and hit within Solar that I'd say damage is calculated when Wrath is cast but Eclipse procs are not determined until the spell hits. I don't say that off this sample of 1 -- I actually got 4 or 5 iterations of the same behavior -- this was just the one that most clearly showed Wrath finishing within Solar and hitting after. Even five is still a small sample size but, if the Wraths weren't benefitting, I think we could clearly see the 40% difference even in a small sample size.

I have also noticed this. The advantages are if you get a string of crits, you can anticipate with certainty that you will likely end up in lunar, and precast the starfire before hand. You could get burned, but unlikely. The problem is for those who are less adept at anticipating the crit based on NG, they will likely be spamming wrath a bit longer then needed. I like to be closer because it takes less of the guess work out, but there are fights like HLK P1 where that simply isn't going to happen.

It is simply another example where you can gamble a bit, and have to decide at what point the gamble is likely to be in your favor. For me, personally, any time I get consecutive NG procs off wrath after the solar phase hits 1 second on the debuff(2 seconds remaining), I switch to starfire.