Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 22

rh8452 · 07/28/10, 2:17 PM

So far as I have always played and understood, eclipse procs when the spell lands, therefore a wrath cast during solar which lands after the solar buff ends can proc lunar. Travel time can give a bit of advantage here as it's possible (when at near max range) for multiple wraths cast within solar to land outside it, enabling a prequeued starfire to benefit from the subsequently procced lunar. This is another situation which favors crit heavily over haste as well.

aceofsween · 07/28/10, 4:22 PM

I believe they may have disabled this when they broke the Squawk and Awe functionality. It seems as though they have made it so that a spell under the effect of Eclipse isn't capable of producing a new Eclipse. I'm not sure exactly and it's been a while since I've tested it, but if memory serves, I believe that is how things work now.

• Adoriele · 07/28/10, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

I believe they may have disabled this when they broke the Squawk and Awe functionality. It seems as though they have made it so that a spell under the effect of Eclipse isn't capable of producing a new Eclipse. I'm not sure exactly and it's been a while since I've tested it, but if memory serves, I believe that is how things work now.

Err, no. The fix that broke SAA (technically, it was the name change that broke SAA, but oh well) simply forced the ICD of Lunar Eclipse back up to 15 seconds when Solar procced, and vice versa, rather than using the Eclipse buff as a prevention measure - much the same way that clicking a trinket forces a short cooldown on your other clicky trinkets, except less visible.

The best explanation for the interaction of Wrath's travel time with Eclipse is that self damage modifiers are calculated when casting finishes, while enemy damage modifiers are calculated when the spell lands. Eclipse can't proc if you don't hit or crit, so it must wait until the spell lands to check whether it will proc. For example, in pseudocode:

WRATHDATA wrath = {.damage = 1000, .critchance = .45, .hitchance = .83, .damagemodifier = 1.00};

OnSpellCastFinish(void)
{
   if (spellJustFinished == wrath
   {
      if (SolarEclipseActive)
         wrath.damageModifier *= 1.40;
      if (balanceOfPower)
         wrath.hitchance += .04;
      if (MoonkinAura)
         wrath.critchance += .05;
      //  etc.
   }
}

OnSpellLands(void)
{
   if (spellWhichLanded == wrath)
   {
      if (hasMisery)
         wrath.hitchance += .03;
      if (rand(0,1) < wrath.hitchance)
      {
         if (hasWinter'sChill)
            wrath.critchance += .05;
         if(rand(0,1) < wrath.critchance)
         {
            if ((timeSinceSolarEclipseProcced > 15.00) && (rand(0,1) < .6))
               ProcLunarEclipse();
         }
      }
   }
}

Not sure exactly how the fix for Nature's Grace factors in, but it's definitely the exception.

Pythanamus · 07/29/10, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

I believe what you are saying is that, if Wrath is cast before Solar Eclipse ends but lands after it ends, it will benefit from that Solar Eclipse . . . which seems logical. However, what seems strange to me as a counterpoint is that I'm near 100% that a Wrath cast within a Solar Eclipse but landing outside of that Eclipse can proc a Lunar Eclipse.

i.e. Wrath Cast, Solar Eclipse Ends, Moonfire cast, Moonfire hits, Wrath hits, Lunar Eclipse starts

That would seem counter to travel time having no effect on Wrath's damage. I'll have to get on a target dummy to take a look at relative Wrath damage and if I am correct on my perception of the above on Wrath proc'ing Lunar Eclipse when cast withing Solar but landing after.

EDIT: Built a quick Youtube vid that shows my perception/recollection of how a Wrath that finishes inside Solar but hits after Solar acts in terms of proc'ing Lunar:

YouTube - Wrath Damage Calcs

However, the damage of that crit Wrath is so close to the Wraths that were completely cast and hit within Solar that I'd say damage is calculated when Wrath is cast but Eclipse procs are not determined until the spell hits. I don't say that off this sample of 1 -- I actually got 4 or 5 iterations of the same behavior -- this was just the one that most clearly showed Wrath finishing within Solar and hitting after. Even five is still a small sample size but, if the Wraths weren't benefitting, I think we could clearly see the 40% difference even in a small sample size.

This was exactly what i was looking for, thanks man. This will however also mean that standing on max range can hurt your starfires during lunar unless you know the exact traveltime for your wrathcasts. So basicly it will be easier rotationwise to be closer to the boss

Kaelandros · 08/19/10, 4:37 PM

I'm having a hard time believing the results I'm seeing from WrathCalcs. After applying all my stats and buffs and such I've checked the various uses of moonfire and insect swarm. What it is telling me is that my highest dps comes from not using IS at all, and only using MF with lunar eclipse. Given that my idol is stacking a crit buff on MF/IS tick it seems hard to believe that its in my best interests to let that buff fall off ever. Especially given that I am not yet at my lunar crit cap. Often enough I'll go the duration of an eclipse cool down without proc'ing the next eclipse.

Would you agree that I'm putting too much stock in the Wrathcalcs output and should instead be keeping up some dot at all times? Would you switch between MF and IS as appropriate or stick to MF the whole time?

Yijiao · 08/19/10, 6:13 PM

Generally speaking, our DoTs are very, very weak. Moonfire without the starfire/moonfire glyphs would be as weak as insect swarm.

The reality is, saving insect swarm to be used when you have to do short burst movements, which tend to occur on most fights, it will benefit you in the long run.

That being said, letting your idol buff drop is never going to be in your best interest, so DoT if you notice the buff won't last until the next time you are allegedly supposed to cast moonfire.

Reality is, the mechanics of our DoTs, because one has frontloaded damage and the other has a hit debuff, are such that they scale poorly from the damage perspective. This won't be an issue next expansion, though.

• Hamlet · 08/20/10, 3:57 AM

WC doesn't actually account for potential Idol dropping. If it's telling you that best DPS is to keep MF once per cycle and not use IS at all, then hold as close to that as you can without dropping you buff.

I suppose this does actually imply that you need to watch your Vicious stack in order to DPS optimally, which is something we should probably talk about more.

Kaelandros · 08/20/10, 9:40 AM

Yea, I recognized that the damage from the DoT wasn't totally meaningless, but also wasn't enough to warrant interrupting the normal rotation. It was the idol proc that concerned me more as I actually need that crit to reach my lunar crit cap at the moment. Sad I know. I figured for the most part WrathCalcs was a good guideline but that adjustments would have to be made where logic demands.

In case you want to see the character sheet here is the link to WoW armory.

Zelis · 09/11/10, 7:12 AM

"Under the effect of Bloodlust, Wrath will gain very little DPS since it's usually so close to the 1s GCD minimum in the first place. The goal during Bloodlust is to use Lunar Eclipse as much as possible. As of 3.3, we can no longer cancel Solar during Bloodlust to make it possible to proc Lunar more quickly, so the spell rotation is largely unchanged. You should get at least one Lunar Eclipse during Bloodlust if you simply maintain your standard rotation; you should use your [Potion of Speed] at that point. If you know when Bloodlust is coming, remember to cast Force of Nature immediately beforehand.

Overall, our benefit from Bloodlust is much smaller than most classes' (roughly 10-12% more DPS for the duration), since only Starfire is significantly affected by the buff."

It is still true ?.Becasue i tested spam starfire tactic so many times and i always have more dps than your tactic.With nature's grace proc i m casting starfire 1.3

Arythorn · 09/11/10, 11:35 AM

IF you can get Starfire down to 1.3 sec cast during Lust THEN:

Starfire spam for duration will work.

IF you can NOT get Starfire down to 1.3 sec cast during Lust THEN:

Follow standard Eclipse rotation.

If you used theoretical maximums, you could figure this out by comparing

Avg Non-Eclipsed Wrath*1.4*15 to get Wrath damage for those 15 seconds.

Then divide the above number by your Average Non-Eclipsed Starfire cast damage to get number of Starfire casts required to provide equal or greater damage. For instance, a bit of target dummy time to get a representative sample of non-Elicpsed Wrath and Starfire cast damage tells me my:

Average Non-Eclipsed Wrath = 6,827
Average Non-Eclipsed Starfire = 12,655

6827*1.4*15=143,378

145,635/12,655 = 11.33 Starfire casts to equate the same damage

15/11.33 = 1.32 Starfire cast speed required.

Reality is we just about never get in a perfect 15 Wraths into a Solar. However, if we said 12 or 13 Wraths and did the math based on that, it doesn't fundamentally change. Right around 1.3 cast speed is a good place to call it.

Zelis · 09/11/10, 2:02 PM

and one more thing can come from me, if you are using pre pot you can macro Gift of the Wild to it,so you will proc set bonus for sure and gain extra dps

Dav1l · 09/16/10, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

IF you can get Starfire down to 1.3 sec cast during Lust THEN:

Starfire spam for duration will work.

IF you can NOT get Starfire down to 1.3 sec cast during Lust THEN:

Follow standard Eclipse rotation.

That's basically what everyone is doing. But there's another question about Heroism and your rotation. Is it worth proccing another Lunar eclipse after the first one expired? What you basically get in a raid environment:
Start of the fight, proccing Lunar straightaway.
0-15 - Lunar eclipse.
16-30 - Solar eclipse probably procced but we continue casting Starfires.
31-40 - Time to proc Lunar or continue casting Starfires till Hero ends?
I couldn't test it properly last raid as I got really bad RNG on all of the static and semi-static encounters getting spores, diseases, etc.

EDIT: We use hero at the start on almost everything (if we don't have the debuff of course).

Arythorn · 09/16/10, 3:09 PM

When Lunar comes of GCD, I'll throw out two Wraths to see if I can quick proc a Lunar again. If not I'm back to Starfire spam til the end of lust. That's just my solution -- not backing it up with anything other than I've had reasonably good luck getting Lunar to proc in those two casts and it seems worth the two GCDs to give it a shot.

♦ Carebare · 10/14/10, 9:49 PM

Closing this. Most of the thread is not patch relevant. Please use the appropriately labeled thread.