Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 6

Blades · 03/21/10, 9:44 AM

I've been playing around with the following 2 setups:
SF / IS / F with 3/5 Genesis 0/2 iMF. Refreshing MF -never, IS - always.
SF / SF / MF with 1/5 Genesis 2/2 iMF. Refreshing MF and IS 'after one eclipse'.
(Just a note, with my current gear I'm crit capped during lunar eclipse without MF.)

The first one gives ~45 dps more, scales slightly better and has a simpler rotation. However it requires you to be closer to the boss for 10secs of every 60 and doesn't provide the IS debuff.

On focus glyph, the only fight I can see the range being an issue is Blood Princes.

aceofsween · 03/21/10, 1:29 PM

I'm guessing that you're using this setup in simulation, but you are aware that the Focus glyph is getting reduced to 10% correct? It makes any of the DoT glyphs (Moonfire, Starfire, and Insect Swarm) better than Focus, which was only just barely ahead of the other setups.

Blades · 03/21/10, 1:44 PM

Actually this was in wrath calcs, and I checked DpET of starfall with and without the glyph and it looked as if the glyph was upto date (ie 10% buff instead of 20%)

aceofsween · 03/21/10, 2:07 PM

Where are you putting the other 2 talent points with the MF/SF/SF setup? You list 1/5 Genesis and 0/2 Improved Moonfire. Also, you should have more talents left over than that. There should be 2 more floating around somewhere (Owlkin Frenzy or Typhoon maybe?).

Going from there, the difference becomes insignificant (~3 DPS) compared to SF/SF/MF with my stats. 3 DPS for a unique hit debuff and a penalty to your range just doesn't seem worth it.

Blades · 03/21/10, 2:16 PM

Sorry that was just a typo. it was meant to be 2/2 iMF on the second. And they are not left over talents really, as they are the only options for getting to the third tier, so long as mana is a none issue.

• Hamlet · 03/23/10, 2:44 PM

Guide (and sheet) updated with Glyph and DoT stuff for 3.3.3, people can see what they think.

Cdin · 03/23/10, 3:08 PM

I don't really agree with this section of the guide:

Originally Posted by Arawethion

In general, you want to cast one DoT as each Eclipse ends: Insect Swarm as Lunar Eclipse ends (so it's up for most of the ensuing Solar), and Moonfire as Solar Eclipse ends (so it's up during Lunar and gets extended with Glyph of Starfire). In a change from earlier rotations, all of your refreshing should be done outside of Eclipse--cast the DoT right as Eclipse ends, before you start your pre-Eclipse nukes for the next half-cycle. Make sure to refresh at least one DoT after each Eclipse, so you keep your [Idol of the Lunar Eclipse] buff.

I've run a few simulations using SimulationCraft to compare the different Glyph combos and DoT rotations.

I don't have the numbers infront of me, in most of the simulations where I limited my use of DoTs it lowered my Simuilated DPS.

I am not entirely sure what you based you conclusion on, but I've found it to be misleading to compare the DPET of a DoT to the DPET of an Eclipsed Nuke. In my opinion, when you are questioning casting a DoT during Eclipse you are really asking should I cast a DoT now and an Uneclipsed Nuke later or an Eclipsed Nuke now and a DoT later. So the question becomes, is the extra damage from an Eclipsed Nuke greater then the damage lost due to lower DoT uptime?

I realize what I am posting is a little vague and I can't provide any numbers at the moment. I will try and run a few more tests tonight and provide some additional numbers.

Erdluf · 03/23/10, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Cdin

I don't really agree with this section of the guide:

I've run a few simulations using SimulationCraft to compare the different Glyph combos and DoT rotations.

I don't have the numbers infront of me, in most of the simulations where I limited my use of DoTs it lowered my Simuilated DPS.

I am not entirely sure what you based you conclusion on, but I've found it to be misleading to compare the DPET of a DoT to the DPET of an Eclipsed Nuke. In my opinion, when you are questioning casting a DoT during Eclipse you are really asking should I cast a DoT now and an Uneclipsed Nuke later or an Eclipsed Nuke now and a DoT later. So the question becomes, is the extra damage from an Eclipsed Nuke greater then the damage lost due to lower DoT uptime?

I realize what I am posting is a little vague and I can't provide any numbers at the moment. I will try and run a few more tests tonight and provide some additional numbers.

The simulations I've run on AskMrRobot leaned towards the guide's recommendations, although I'd say the difference was within the margin of error.

Note that if rotation1 and rotation2 provide the same dps on a patchwerk fight, but rotation2 uses fewer dots, then rotation2 will be better on a movement fight (more dots available for movement, with less clipping).

I don't believe MrRobot supports fights with movement. I believe Simulationcraft does, but I haven't used it lately. Has anyone compared the DoT rotations using simc's movement options?

I actually believe the best time (other than movement) to place a DoT is when you might notice Eclipse proccing during the DoT's GCD. That means that there is a 25-55% chance that the DoT did not extend your Eclipse cycle, and also did not reduce the number of Eclipse'd nukes you got during the current cycle. The penalty is reduced DoT uptime, but with 4t10, that penalty is small, because DoTs, at best, aren't that much better than Eclipsed nukes.

gannonjf · 03/23/10, 4:44 PM

Has anyone else noticed issues with Squawk and Awe miss reporting Eclipses and the cooldowns now?

Hyperion · 03/23/10, 4:46 PM

Has anyone else noticed issues with Squawk and Awe miss reporting Eclipses and the cooldowns now?

Yep, I'm having trouble too, I think there's something wrong with the solar eclipse detection. I'm having other addon problems too, vertical bars that create different color gradients... making it very hard to read a broken SAA.

conghaile · 03/23/10, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Cdin

I've run a few simulations using SimulationCraft to compare the different Glyph combos and DoT rotations.

I don't have the numbers infront of me, in most of the simulations where I limited my use of DoTs it lowered my Simulated DPS

I went back to Team Robot under the same conditions I used back on post #38 on page 2. I tried a rotation in which moonfire is only applied just before Lunar Eclipse, and Insect Swarm is only applied just before Solar Eclipse. By "just before" I mean the preceding Eclipse has dropped and the next Eclipse is ready to proc.

Here are the results:
9909.4 +-25.6dps

These are lower than the rotation that allowed moonfire to be reapplied anytime except during Solar Eclipse, so that's two simulators that don't like the one-DoT rotation.

Elwood · 03/23/10, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by gannonjf

Has anyone else noticed issues with Squawk and Awe miss reporting Eclipses and the cooldowns now?

Seems to me that it's detecting the solar eclipse, but not drawing the bar for it.

On a related note, MSBT seems to have "lost" the setting to announce lunar eclipse, but that was solved by adding the trigger manually. Not sure what happened, but if anyone else has that issue, it's an easy fix.

gannonjf · 03/23/10, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Elwood

Seems to me that it's detecting the solar eclipse, but not drawing the bar for it.

Any idea how to fix it, or if there is a fix in the works already? I really dont like the way Quartz tracks our dots and eclipse at all.

Zifrelm · 03/23/10, 9:07 PM

Unfortunately the fellow who made SAA stopped playing the game, or stop raiding, or something of that sort. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Certainly sucks, as it's my favorite mod. :-(

gannonjf · 03/23/10, 9:40 PM

SquawkAndAwe

Looks like it will be addressed fairly soon.