Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 8

• Hamlet · 03/24/10, 7:37 PM

Starfall shoots up to 2 stars per second for 10 seconds. So against a single target, you get 10 stars. Against two or more targets spaced, you get 20 stars, for twice as much damage. A splash hit is about 1/4 as big as a direct hit, so if there are 5 targets clumped, you're getting around 4 times as much damage as you would on a single target.

I'd use Focus anytime you're getting a chance to Starfall multiple targets, and not bother with it any other time.

gannonjf · 03/24/10, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Our Resto Shaman said that Water Shield didn't proc on BQL today. I'm going to guess that Shroud of Sorrow was fixed and Owlkin Frenzy won't proc anymore either.

This looks to be correct, hardly procing at all now for me. I'll throw up a parse once we are out of ICC for the night.

aceofsween · 03/25/10, 12:34 AM

That's some what unfortunate. I really wish things were more consistent with regard to this sort of thing. I think the overall idea is that if it causes push back (or is a DoT of some sort) it is suppose to proc Owlkin Frenzy. Other sources of damage are not. The issue is that the wording is so unclear. Additional, it sometimes appears to proc off things that don't even target you directly such as Malleable Goo, which seems to proc the effect even if you aren't the target.

One thing I have noticed is that when you get an absorb (Power Word: Shield for instance) unless the damage pierces the absorb, Owlkin Frenzy won't proc regardless of the damage source.

Grendelle · 03/25/10, 2:26 AM

The starfall buff has brought me to the top of the caster dps list with the mages...
Just wondering, what are the odds that they nerf it? It is kind of OP, and I could see it happening. Wondering what EJ things based on your experience with previous buffs/nerfs.

gannonjf · 03/25/10, 3:38 AM

-54 Applications of Owlkin last week 3.3.2.
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

-5 Applications of Owlkin this week on 3.3.3.
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

Sinx · 03/25/10, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Grendelle

The starfall buff has brought me to the top of the caster dps list with the mages...
Just wondering, what are the odds that they nerf it? It is kind of OP, and I could see it happening. Wondering what EJ things based on your experience with previous buffs/nerfs.

It will probably get somewhat nerfed as the usual pure vs hybrid whining will start again. Personally I don't think it's that op'ed. On certain fights you can gain pretty high damage meter scores due to it hitting multiple targets while still maintaining more or less optimal dps on the boss itself (DKs, Shadow Priests, Warriors, Rogues, Fire mages etc all have similar opportunities aswell).

At Rotface for example, starfall does alot of damage, but in reality alot of the stars hit the oozes, in which the damage is technically wasted since you don't kill those anyways. However it does make you look good on the meters. It's like shadow priests multidotting Iron Council in Ulduar to look good on meters, but the damage is wasted since they heal up when 1 dies. Lich King p1 would be another example, where you can do massive dmg to the small adds, but you can kill them off with necrotic plague aswell. Same on Blood Council, where stars will drop on the 1hp bosses. Sindragosa you can whore meters by popping it on the tombs during air phase.

So I guess it's a matter of how you look at it. Strictly meter wise, it might be op'ed, but it's also somewhat uncontrolled damage. Also considering the relatively steep price we pay for having to move, and Blizzard's statements that the so called hybrid should expect to be somwhere along the lines of 5% lower on dps than pure ones, I don't think it's an unfair buff. Perhaps warlocks and maybe shadow priests need to be made stronger, but it's not like a moonkin is gonna violate a rogue or arcane mage that know what they're doing.

Voek1 · 03/25/10, 7:35 AM

Pre patch 3.3.3 I would usually try to time Starfalls during Eclipse transistions, but some very rough calculations indicate that it is now worth it to cast it during Lunar Eclipse if there is a sufficient amount of time left before it ends. How are people timing their Starfalls at the moment? Just simply when it is off cooldown, or more like: only if there is more than x seconds left on Eclipse.

kaktüs · 03/25/10, 9:52 AM

According to wrathcalc100323
with specified sp haste crit hit given as an example...

IS with glyph deals 10.9k damage.
IS without glyph deals 8.4k damage.
Wrath with IS deals 10k damage.
Wrath without IS deals 9.8k damage.
Wrath in solar eclipse with IS deals 13.35k damage.
Wrath in solar eclipse without IS deals 13.1k damage.

If we assume solar eclipse procced and we cast 12 wraths, total damage done =157.1k
If we assume solar eclipse procced and we cast IS and cast 11 wraths total damage done =8.4k+11x13.35 = 155.25k

Therefore, after removal of IS glyph, removing IS from cycle makes sense in my opinion. What do you think?

Zifrelm · 03/25/10, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

I think the overall idea is that if it causes push back (or is a DoT of some sort) it is suppose to proc Owlkin Frenzy

I agree; I think things that cause pushback are exactly what also proc OF.

Originally Posted by Voek1

How are people timing their Starfalls at the moment? Just simply when it is off cooldown, or more like: only if there is more than x seconds left on Eclipse.

Good question. Like you, I've been trying not to do it during Eclipse, unless it's at the very start of one. I don't have a specific number of seconds, just sort of gut-feeling at this point.

In a related question, when do people use it at the start of a fight? I've started waiting for my DFO to proc and get 4-5 stacks at the start of a fight before hitting SFall. It usually procs pretty quickly, but not always - is it worth waiting at all? Now that I think of it, I should probably start waiting for 10 stacks before popping my treants, unless I think I could otherwise get another cast off during the fight. That decision is much easier than SFall, however.

And in a question related to that: It's been said that SFall, like Hurricane, benefits from temporary +% effects like 2T10 on a per-tick basis and not just on initial cast. What about +SP effects (like the aforementioned DFO), though?

• Hamlet · 03/25/10, 9:57 AM

Hmm, I did forget about the IS debuff when I rewrote the DoT's section yesterday. Maybe the best compromise is to cast IS after each Eclipse? That gives pretty high uptime for very minimal DPS loss.

Erdluf · 03/25/10, 10:02 AM

I've been seeing fair DPS improvements in Robot (~50 DPS) by choosing DoT logic somewhere between "always up" and "one DoT after each eclipse." Glyphs: MF SF Sfall.

This almost certainly isn't perfect, but for 4t10 the simulator likes

1) Never clip a DoT
2) Never cast a DoT during the "wrong" eclipse.
3) Never cast IS immediately after MF (reasoning, NG uptime and if this is pre-Lunar, I want a Wrath in flight).
4) Don't cast IS during the last four seconds of Solar (old arguments).

This tends to give IS uptimes around 55-60%, and MF uptimes around 70-75%.

The interaction of rules 2,3,4 mean you sometimes get only one IS per Eclipse cycle (cycles where both Eclipses proc quickly).

You usually get one MF per cycle, and it is usually cast in the pre-Lunar phase, or early in Lunar.

For 4t9, rule (2) applies only to IS. MF uptime is >90%, and IS uptime is about 65-70%.

Robot logic for IS is

IS only if
( NOT(target has IS)
  AND NOT(have >= 1 stacks of Lunar)
  AND NOT(the previous action was MF)
  AND ( NOT(have >= 1 stacks of Solar)
        OR (Target has Solar and < 11 seconds have elapsed)
      )
)

Of course, this assumes you don't care very much about the IS debuf.

Voek1 · 03/25/10, 11:28 AM

If I am correct, then the damage lost per second of not using Starfall is at least 750. Let's say Starfall is 58K damage for one GCD and Lunar gives about 13K damage per GCD if used on Starfire (numbers are rounded in a way to make Starfall look worse). The benefit of Starfall above Lunar Starfire spam is then: 58-13=45K damage. Every second Starfall is not used then costs you at least: 45K/60= 750 damage.

The benefit of an extra GCD Lunar Starfire versus a normal Starfire is about 3K. So, this implies that if you have more than 4 seconds left of Lunar, then you should cast Starfall. However, the benefit of an extra GCD Lunar Starfire is lower than 3K, since casting the Starfall after Lunar reduces future Eclipse up-time. If Eclipse up-time is about 66%, then the loss is only 1K damage, which then implies that you only want to delay Starfall if there is slightly more than 1 second of Lunar left.

The math is a bit vague, but I get the feeling that the benefit of delaying Starfall in order to benefit more from Eclipse up-time is quite small.

Qieth · 03/25/10, 11:37 AM

So, I got to thinking about the old discussion of using GotW to proc our 2p tier bonus for extra damage on dots. It was generally agreed that this was a damage loss, because of the GCD you lost wasn't outweighed by the damage you gained. But how about using it in conjunction with starfall.

I pulled these numbers from Wrath Calcs. I realise that it might be a bit screwered, but I lack the mathematical skills to make it more advanced than this.

The idea would be to pop starfall, and then a GotW - it doesn't matter that we might miss the first star, because the bonus is only for 6 seconds anyways, so six stars. I estimated that on a single target fight, starfall might do 50.000 damage unbuffed and with 6/10 stars buffed, I place it at 54.000 damage. I did include some starfires to extend the moonfire.

I also assumed three wraths to proc eclipse, and one more to "notice it".

Seconds: Damage
0 starfall: 54500
1 GotW
2 Moonfire: 16916,5 (will be extended)
3 wrath: 10859
4 wrath: 10859
5 wrath: 10859
6 wrath: 10859
8 starfire: 21252
10 starfire: 21252
12 starfire: 21252
= 188169 damage

0 starfall: 50000
1 moonfire: 14710
2 wrath: 8371
3 wrath: 8371
4 wrath: 8371
5 wrath: 8371
7 Starfire: 21252
9 starfire: 21252
11 starfire: 21252
12 starfire: 10626 (half a starfire)
= 172576 damage

So, in this model, there is a 15.593 damage difference over 12 seconds if using GotW after casting starfall. If my calculations are correct (and it is entirely possible that they are not), then we can score a bit more damage from popping GotW for a bonus which is sufficient to take over the damage we lose from using that GCD on buffing.

Am i anywhere close with this? Could this work in a real envrioment, and is this something we could use on the pull, or even mid fight after we throw out starfall?

Lord BEEF · 03/25/10, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Voek1

Pre patch 3.3.3 I would usually try to time Starfalls during Eclipse transistions, but some very rough calculations indicate that it is now worth it to cast it during Lunar Eclipse if there is a sufficient amount of time left before it ends. How are people timing their Starfalls at the moment? Just simply when it is off cooldown, or more like: only if there is more than x seconds left on Eclipse.

I would think the difference there would be pretty minimal. The timing for me depends a lot more on the boss. For Saurfang I use it on cooldown but not if it will be wasted on blood beasts, for Deathwhisper I time it so it's not going to potentially hit any mind controlled people, on putricide I use it each time a green ooze comes out and so on.

Erdluf · 03/25/10, 12:04 PM

Qieth,

It might work. Numbers questions:

50k Starfall for a single target may be a bit high?

What is the chance for GotW to not proc Omen? 30+%?

If Omen bonus applies to spells which have already been cast, you'll do a little better if you already have IS, MF, and possibly 4t10 ticking at the time of the GotW cast. If Omen bonus doesn't apply in this situation, you might need to cast GotW before Starfall, reducing the impact.