Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3 - Page 9

Voek1 · 03/25/10, 1:08 PM

Qieth, did you also take into account the up-time of Omen without GOTW? By the way, if you just want to use 1 GOTW during Starfall during to proc Omen, then you might be better off delaying GOTW a few seconds, to see if Omen happens to proc without GOTW and only cast GOTW if there is still 6-7 seconds of Starfall left and Omen didnt proc.

aceofsween · 03/25/10, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

50k Starfall for a single target may be a bit high?

Just want to clarify that a single Starfall when fully buffed is very easy to break over the 50k mark. Mine is showing an average total damage of 57670.828 per Starfall. If anything, 50k is too low as mine are close to breaking the 60k mark fully raid buffed.

As for the chance to proc GotW: it's about 6% per raid member per cast. Comes out to about 80% chance to proc OoC (78.70898627%).

• Hamlet · 03/25/10, 5:12 PM

Hmm, someone on the guide thread points out that Engineering my be good now. I hadn't looked at professions in while (I think since I originally wrote it, actually):
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-m...a/#post1597151

Anyone notice anything wrong with this?

gannonjf · 03/25/10, 6:05 PM

I've been wondering the very same thing for a while now and was hoping to see someone put numbers to it. The hyperspeed + lunar eclipse sounds like it could potentially be better but I'm horrible at math so I'm not for certain. I'd imagine hyperspeed + lunar + speed pot + hero and you might hit the GCD for starfires and that sounds delicious. I think I could trade my lightweave embroidery for that if the numbers crunched back up what I'm already semi assuming. Can anyone well versed in math map this out a bit for us?

Draugir · 03/25/10, 7:53 PM

Some napkin math:

Assume 600 haste (ICC gear). Potion of Speed = 500 haste, Hyperspeed Accelerators = 340 haste. 600 + 500 + 340 = 1440 haste. Entering that haste value into WrathCalcs, I get a NG-ed Starfire cast time of 1.6 seconds. Heroism increases casting speed by 30%, so 1.6/1.3 = 1.23 second cast Starfire.The same calculation with 900 haste results in a 1.15 second cast Starfire.

Happyakuu · 03/25/10, 8:37 PM

Professions

In regards to professions, I was curious if anyone has tried Engineering. I currently have enchanting and by trading i would get (-46 spell power, -23 haste from cloak, +27 spell power on cloak, +24 critical on boots and 340 on each lunar eclipse).

I think is a fair trade off but I want to know if someone else has tried this and how did it go. I think I'm not getting sufficient bonus on enchanting and I have some spare gold, so I'm looking for personal experience on the alternatives (engineering. tailoring, alchemy).

Thanks!

Quoted to show the perspective vs enchanting stat wise:

-46 spell power from rings
-23 haste from cloak

+27 spell power on cloak
+24 critical on boots

So we actually get 23 haste traded for crit (which could be considered a tie) and -19 spell power.

I think 19 spell power (less than a gem) is a really low price to pay for:

+Eclipse haste
+Movement boost
+A better "on the move spell" (saronite bombs)

Just my .02

Yijiao · 03/26/10, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Draugir

Some napkin math:

Assume 600 haste (ICC gear). Potion of Speed = 500 haste, Hyperspeed Accelerators = 340 haste. 600 + 500 + 340 = 1440 haste. Entering that haste value into WrathCalcs, I get a NG-ed Starfire cast time of 1.6 seconds. Heroism increases casting speed by 30%, so 1.6/1.3 = 1.23 second cast Starfire.

600 haste is a bit low for legitimate ICC gear towards the end of the xpac, especially considering haste scales better with t10 4pc compared to crit past both softcaps...

gannonjf · 03/26/10, 1:54 AM

600haste is alot low. I'm at 700 right now and am slowly pulling 277 gear out. I expect to be around 850-900haste once I have everything I want from there.

Qieth · 03/26/10, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Qieth,
50k Starfall for a single target may be a bit high?

If Omen bonus applies to spells which have already been cast, you'll do a little better if you already have IS, MF, and possibly 4t10 ticking at the time of the GotW cast. If Omen bonus doesn't apply in this situation, you might need to cast GotW before Starfall, reducing the impact.

I don't think that 50k is unrealistic. Thats what I pulled on a dummy, standing at a distance so only one got hit. Although, ofcourse, this caused some splash damage to the nearby dummy, but adding raid buffs I have no doub that starfall can do 50k single target.

I believe Omen of Doom works differently depending on spell, as far as I'm aware. Dots are increased when they are applied, but each star from starfire is seen as an individual cast, so I would assume that it can be increased after it has been cast.

Originally Posted by Voek1

Qieth, did you also take into account the up-time of Omen without GOTW? By the way, if you just want to use 1 GOTW during Starfall during to proc Omen, then you might be better off delaying GOTW a few seconds, to see if Omen happens to proc without GOTW and only cast GOTW if there is still 6-7 seconds of Starfall left and Omen didnt proc.

My aim was to make sure that Omen of Doom also was up for the moonfire that we put up after the GotW. The moonfire will "probably" be extended as well, so I may as well get that in as well. If Omen of Doom procs on its own, then that is what we have been doing all along. This idea is more of a controlled, assured buff to starfall.

Rider_TT · 03/26/10, 5:58 AM

Originally Posted by Happyakuu

Quoted to show the perspective vs enchanting stat wise:

-46 spell power from rings
-23 haste from cloak

+27 spell power on cloak
+24 critical on boots

So we actually get 23 haste traded for crit (which could be considered a tie) and -19 spell power.

I think 19 spell power (less than a gem) is a really low price to pay for:

+Eclipse haste
+Movement boost
+A better "on the move spell" (saronite bombs)

Just my .02

You forgot that engineering enchant overwrite regular enchant, so the trade off is (enchanting->engineering):

Cloak: -23 haste, +27 SP
Boots: -12 crit, -12 hit, +24 crit
Gloves: -28 SP, 340 haste for 12s every minute
Rings: -43 SP

SP: -44
Haste: -23 static and +340 "on demand"
Crit: +12
Hit: -12

Question: is 340 haste during one lunar eclipse on 2 better than a static [44SP - 12 crit + 12 hit] combo ?

Using WC, I tried to estimate the potential gain (see Arawethion link).
I estimated that "340 for 12s during 1 lunar eclipse on 2" is equal to 136 "Extra haste during Lunar Eclipse".
With my (not so good) gear, it leads to a ~100 DPS gain.
[44SP - 12 crit + 12 hit] on the other hand is a ~65 DPS gain (assuming hit capped, +12 hit = 0 DPS).

First (rough) conclusion: Engineering >> "Professions that provide static 46/48 SP" (Alchemy, Blacksmithing, Enchanting, Inscription, Jewelcrafting, Leatherworking)

BUT!!!

In case we have to move during the "Hyperspeed Lunar Eclipse", we loose ALL (or a part of) the benefit of one cooldown.

I also wondering how the "Extra haste during Lunar Eclipse" is computing in WC ?
I have the gut-feeling that it is not obvious to take into account the haste threshold (= the point where you can have 1 additional Lunar Eclipsed Starfire). So DPS gain are non linear...
With that in mind, I feel that an average "136 haste" for the Hyperspeed accelerator is probably a bad estimation.

Any better ideas?

Videl · 03/26/10, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Rider_TT

BUT!!!

In case we have to move during the "Hyperspeed Lunar Eclipse", we loose ALL (or a part of) the benefit of one cooldown.

Someone seems to bring this sort of "issue" up every time any item or ability for any class has some uptime followed by an ICD or cooldown of some sort. It does not hold water and is not a concern when evaluating these effects.

The only reason it could be a downside is if there is some reason why you are more likely to be unable to cast during lunar eclipse than any other time (pvp comes to mind, as you might be more likely to get CC'd during eclipse, otherwise I can't think of anything). Otherwise, the penalty for wasting your ability by getting knocked out somehow during the duration is perfectly offset by the bonus you get for getting knocked out while the ability is cooling down, as it continues to cool down while you're knocked out while a static bonus would be unusable.

In fights with periodic movement the cooldowns of the movement and the abilities may interact to make abilities with a cooldown more or less valuable than a static ability with the same average value, but on average the cooldown and the static ability will come out the same.

Diba · 03/26/10, 9:45 AM

You should also take into consideration that in most cases you will want to enchant your boots with Tuskarr's Vitality instead of a stat boost enchant. Rocket Boots itself are a huge boost in many ICC fights.

razornova · 03/26/10, 3:43 PM

Hi everyone. I am currently playing a resto druid. Our guild had our first night on LK10 tonight and we realized resto druids are not the best healers on Lk due to the mechanics of infest.

My guild leader has suggested I respec moonkin for this fight. We were lacking burst on val'kyrs and I've played moonkin here and there and noticed how my burst can be good at times but it is rng dependent.

I've also heard that starfall doesn't work on vile spirits which is a big letdown for me considering the huge buff it just received.

So mainly my question is how competitive are moonkins on LK?

Videl · 03/26/10, 6:16 PM

Starfall is obviously pretty strong on the valks. In general though we're just another dps class there and you'll be about as effective there as you are on any other fight of that sort like PP.

Druidark · 03/26/10, 6:22 PM

Moonkins are pretty good on the LK fight p1 & p2. Skill & mistakes are up to the invidual though.. In P3 moonkins are a bit less good since P3 is all about killing the vile spirits fast enough. AoE spells from other classes like spriest mind sear, shaman chain lightning, warlock Seed of Corruption are better for aoe'ing the flying/moving in air vile spirits.

I don't agree with your guild's opinion that resto are not worth bringing to the LK fight, I won't claim what class is best for raid/tankhealing for the Lk.