RE: DW Cyclones

#showtooltip Cyclone
/cast [target=mouseover,help][target=target] Cyclone

Replace your default Cyclone bind with this macro. You can then hover over a raid frame and bind it or, if there is a big, obvious, giant MC target next to you, just hover over the player in the game world. This last bit actually has saved me a few times when I've seen a melee DPS bee-lining for me. I don't have to take the time to correlate them to a raid frame -- just hover over them with the mouse and bind that macro.


Now, to ask a question -- I'm resto main spec but am going Moonkin for HLK 10 and 25 attempts. I have access to pretty much everything from a gear perspective and am going to start focusing on getting the right ratio of hit, crit, haste, etc. My current setup is definitely out of whack. I've built the list of what I'm going for and am fine on it all except for trinkets. I'm not quite sure how to rank [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich], [Muradin's Spyglass], and [Reign of the Dead].

Assuming a 100 sec internal GCD, Phylactery beats Muradin's in principle on both Crit and average SP -- though the randomness of when it procs might not always be very ideal in terms of where you are in your rotation, cooldowns, etc. Something to be said for an essentially always-up static amount of SP that Muradin's provides. Reign is much harder for me to evaluate though I've seen people that have access to all 3 trinkets tooling around with double-Reign. Maybe their relative value is exactly in that order I linked them but curious to hear feedback.

EDIT: [Dislodged Foreign Object] is one I hadn't really considered but probably worth adding to the list.

[quote=Dendrek;1628665]I've seen some speculation regarding the proper use of Starfall and Treants in the balance rotation, but I wonder if I can get some conclusive answers to a few questions I have:

As for timing on usage of trenants and starfall: one thing to understand is that you current spell power is directly related to how hard the starfall will hit as you sp grows so does the damage done with starfall. Once the procs dissapear and you starfall is still up it will now hit for the lower amount of spell power. As for you trenants they are a bit different once you release them they use the current amount of sp for their duration.

currently i use DFO and Phylactery and my rotation starts as
FF > wrath (get earth and moon up) >MF >IS>WRATH till lunar >SF

While this is occuring i may pop both cd's depending on my procs. Dfo procs i pop starfall on the 5th stack (to ensure full time proc to starfall) and i will pop trenants at the 9th stack of DFO and hope and pray Phylacter pops during this whole process

In the end i think its really a player prefernece on when to pop cd's but imo these times are best for optimal dps with my current gear setup

You mention Treant's damage being based on the druid's SP when they are cast.

If this is correct, as I suspect it is, then perhaps your argument about when to use Starfall also applies to using Treants.

You want to try and line them up with trinket procs, but obviously you aren't going to wait a long time. IF your trinket(s) are about to proc in the next 15secs or so it's worth waiting. New Squawk and Awe has trinket support built in for DFO and Phaly so it might be worthwhile to get. I thought I would hate it for tracking my Phaly but I have since changed my mind and very much like being able to see how soon it will be til it's off CD.

[quote=Barlee;1628692] I am relativly new to boomkin, but here's what I found useful for squeezing in just a little bit more dps:

2 secs before pull I treant/haste pot, as target becomes attackable wrath>FF>wrath>MF>wrath till lunar>SF
I try to use wrath travel time to my advantage, the only time I'm in bad shape is when first wrath procs eclipse, and even then I only loose a fraction of a second of lunar (still good dps-wise as that means I got an eclipse early) and that is really dependant on how close to the boss I am standing. As fight goes on, I only refresh MF as solar ends or when I'm on the move and Starfall/Treants is on CD and IS has more than 6s. I try to cast IS/Starfall whenever I'm moving regardless of current eclipses, and if I was standing on one spot whole time (no one really cares about such fights these days) I would Starfall as lunar ends, to minimize unlucky RNG and I would never cast IS.

I really envy your trinkets ( i'm running with 245 Reign of the dead and 264 Muradin's Spyglass and my favorite 277 Trauma). But I am still unsure if speeding up a stack of DFO would be a benefit to getting a critical SF earlier, as for Phylactery with the rotation i posted the SP proc would be closer to lunar eclips. That's how i like to dps on the pull
What bugs me, is what happens during bloodlust/heroism. Currently, I try spaming 1.4s SF, even during solar, keeping MF uptime 100% to make sure i get maximum crit chance, casting wraths as solar ends to proc another lunar and then going back to SF. I can't really confirm that is a dps gain, and I am still unsure if I should cast Starfall during noneclipsed SF spam while heroism/lust is up to protect me from getting 2 noncrits in a row and loosing NG.

Another question I have, has anyone tested Nibelung(H) on Lich King (H) ? The only log I could find was Lappe of Paragon and it wasn't doing really strong for him there. I still can't calculate what is our BiS weapon. WrathCalcs suggests that is Nibelung, but if I use numbers I get from logs to evaluate Val'Kyr effect, Frozen Bonespike + Spindle seem to be better. And you get extra crit and haste to smooth out all the proc times.

PS: forgive my bad english, and as a sidenote - this extreme min maxing fades away when you spend 2-3 seconds attacking noone or wrong target, and minimizing movement during fight gains most dps

[quote=art3d;1629150] The Valk's do not scale with the ICC buff so any strength they had over MH/OH or other staffs of the same ilevel is going away quickly. My 277 Nibelung is a toy for me now and I run with the 277 Dying Light.

Did you mean the 271 version of the Terenas since that's the one the majority of players will have access to?

I currently have Tailoring and Enchanting, but I'm looking at Engineering a lot more favorably lately. I see whatever increase it will give me being a potentially large benefit(340 haste on 1 min cooldown, rocket boots(and a better boot enchant),frag belt). I've therefore decided that I want to grab it, if nothing else just to try it out. My question is:

How does Engineering stack up with Tailoring in that having both would sacrifice the Engineering 27 spellpower enchant? Is it worth keeping both over Enchanting, because the proc from Tailoring is so powerful, or would I lose too much from the loss of Engineering's cloak enchant?

I suppose it boils down to whether Engineering(minus the Engi cloak enchant) plus the Tailoring cloak enchant is better than Engineering(with the Engi cloak enchant) plus the 46 spellpower from Enchanting.

First time poster, thanks for whatever help I get.

I've been a bit behind lately due to LK H progression + exams + Cataclysm stuff + SC2. But one of the last things I was looking at on this topic was Engineering potentially being slightly better than other professions. I think there's a lot of evidence is might be the case.

No, that's with the ilvl 284 version.

Although this may be a good average, there is substantial evidence that the Nibelung proc can be much better than spreadsheets show. Take into account as well the fact that the Valkyr attack even when you are forced to move... it makes them slightly better in many situations.

I was rolling with Nibelung prior to the last fix (when we had a 3% proc chance on SF), but stopped when they made it 2% for all. I would say that there is potential in any given fight to do better than the spreadsheets would suggest, but there's also equal potential to do substantially worse. Thus the spreadsheet's average.

Anecdote: I've had a fight where Valks did 12% of my damage on Putricide, and another where they did 2%.

We have enough random elements in our DPS, I don't need another.

In previous trinket discussions, it was determined that, post caps, Heroic DFO > Reign > Phylactery.

Now, the newest rawr shows that Heroic Phylactery > Heroic Reign by about 40 DPS post both caps.

My question is, is rawr overstating the value of Phylactery, or is it mostly because the change to starfall that the phylactery has pulled ahead? I realize that the value of the reign proc changed none with the change whereas the value of phylactery may have changed.

Starfall and 4T10 bonus. Languish provides a DPS increase during solar eclipse and whenever outside of any eclipse, where crit is the strongest non-spellpower stat available even above soft cap. My guess is on a pure tank and spank fight where you never have to move, the improved proc now allows it to scale past reign once you exceed a level of haste where you hit reign's internal cooldown on successive starfires. So spreadsheets and artificial modelling tools will rank it very slightly higher.

I'm not the biggest fan of Phylactery (proc is wasted if you have to move / you get iceblocked / etc) but on paper it comes out ahead. If I had to choose though, I'd still use heroic reign as it is the least affected by movement/phase change throughout a fight, and there's rather few fights in icecrown where you get to stand still and be a DPS turret for the entire duration.

If you are referring to my previous view on trinkets (Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3) then I may repeat:

I used the spreadsheet with 3.3.3 (SF Buff)
I calculated with an increased cooldown on the Phyl as this was fact on the PTR (100 sec + 3 sec Time To Proc), and I think this is still true.
I included the buff to the Phyl Spellpower

Finally this was all done with the stats I had back then, though they didnt change that much until now. Both soft caps were reached the value of stats varied only by +/- 0.03 dps or so.

So if I didn't make any error, then I don't see why the values should have changed much. But consider this is post crit cap, with significantly hurts the Phyl.

This didnt take any consideration to movement or the pain/joy of "on-use-trinkets"

/Edit: All data was based on spreadsheet since I consider it the most accurate. No Rawr usage so I can't comment on the error one of both may have made (though I'd blame rawr)

/2nd Edit:

Considering Nibelung:
My Analysis of own logs showed me a much less value of Nibelung in pratice (I only have NH version though, but our other owl is much less lucky with procs and has hero).
On our 25 Man ICC HM almost clear + TOGC25 clear my valks made 235.2 dps
On our 10 Man LK HM attempts it averaged to 195 dps
Since my focus lies on LK now it is not half the value of the sheet and that doesn't even consider that dmg gets wasted on ghouls
25 Man Log: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
10 Man LK HM: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Finally it was already said that they don't scale with the damage buff (now 15%). Adding that as a 1.15 multiplicator to the sum of either FB(H)+SSS(H) or Halion(H) it comes out they are both significantly stronger than any Nibelung version. So though I really like my valks as they are kinda stylish, they just don't add enough damage to be of any relevance now.

My thoughts exactly.

Not only is there the random proc but also random in their survivability. I was more of a fan on the Nibelung during normal mode progression with the Valk healing buff. With HM and all the increase raid damage (D&D, coldflames, etc), I cringe when hearing the all too familiar Valk death cry. My experience is limited to the normal version Nibelung so perhaps the heroic version have better healing capabilities in HMs.

All that being said if our spec had more consistency in dps the randomness of the proc/survivability might be worth the gamble for times the Valk could provide the claimed 12% of damage. But since moonkin dps has so many variables with procs, movement, and how many lunars during a hero/bloodlust adding another random-hard-to-model element just seems to go in the opposite direction of what moonkins try to do in order to max our dps, which is to limit the random not make it more so. I think the Nibelung should not be labeled a BiS but rather a situational weapon.

The answers are scattered about, which is the only real reason I'm responding to the question, but the information you're looking for is there, just not in one specific thread.

Insect Swarm alone is not worth casting (even glyphed, it's damage is pretty paltry). The reason you cast Insect Swarm is to boost the damage of Wrath through Improved Insect Swarm. That is the only thing that makes IS worth casting: the added damage from IIS plus the damage from the DoT itself more than make up for the damage lost when casting it. That being said, the best time to use it is still up for a little debate. Sometime between Lunar-to-Solar, ideally right before you proc Solar Eclipse.

This assumes you aren't using the Insect Swarm Glyph (both Moonfire/Starfire still seems to do a little better). If you are, refresh Insect Swarm any time you are not in Eclipse, basically between Solar and Lunar phases.

Unglyphed IS provides 3% hit debuff, don't forget. In case of hard hitting bosses, I try keeping it up all the time. My dps goes down a wee bit, but tank gets hit ~5% less often (assuming 40% avoidance). Reasonable trade-off, I think. Apart from this, you always refresh it on the run, as you have nothing else to do.

I used Normal Nibelung forever. When they up'd the procrate, it was pretty much on par with Heroid Abracadaver (I tested on Raid Dummy, though) I picked up Heroic Nibelung last night and after gemming/enchanting, equipped it over my Abracadaver. I didn't notice an increase in DPS or damage. One thing I did notice though was the sheer difference in amount of valks I was proccing compared to when I used Normal Nibelung a couple months ago. Throughout the raid night, I did not have 2 valks up simultaneously once. I did not proc more than 3 valks on a boss, not once. I am now reading that they nerfed the proc-rate down again?

I was lucky to pick up Heroic Dying Light in the same night, and swapped out my Nibelung. I'm just not that impressed with it anymore. I'd rather have the 130 Haste from DL, then I can swap out some of my other gear for more SP or Int.

I'll keep Nibelung for pvp, but yea, the nerf to the valk procrate is harsh.

We're currently working on Lich King normal, haven't gotten to phase 3 yet (sad, yes I know). I have read on tankspot that night-elf moonkin druids are the only class/spec combo that have an issue with the spirit wardens. I am assuming that unglyphed typhoon does not interrupt this spell cast for some reason, can anyone confirm this? How do others handle the fight inside Frostmourne as Moonkin? I can't see changing over to bear and bashing as being particularly effective way of taking care of the spirit warden, but it's the only other possibility I can find other than healing Terenas.

Didn't try Typhoon, but the spirit is immun to cyclone.
So yes, you have to bear+stun and you better be quick about it (you can also cat+rake+maim but it's longer).

I usually full hot Terenas, switch to bear and wait for the cast, stun, then start pewpewing. Found it quite safer.

Typhoon's knock-back does indeed cancel the channeled spell, just be careful not to cast it any earlier than you need to