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Old 06/10/10, 11:05 AM   #301
Beanna
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Conseil des Ombres (EU)
About the Improved Feral Charge, it might be interesting to switch to Bear form to use the bear charge to quickly return to our target (no rage problem with Furor) and then immediately switch to cat to enjoy the haste buff during 8 sec that seems, at least for now, more interesting than the buff given by the cat feral charge.

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Old 06/10/10, 11:17 AM   #302
Salita
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
I'm currently somewhat worried over the movement speed reduction in tree form. If it stays this way treeform may be very situational since usually fights had their most healing intensive phase when there was also a lot of movement, such as sindragosa/bql et cetera. I guess it all depends on whether blizzard gives us a shiny [Glypf of Treeform] to reduce it.

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Old 06/10/10, 12:08 PM   #303
Rijndael
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Salita View Post
I'm currently somewhat worried over the movement speed reduction in tree form. If it stays this way treeform may be very situational since usually fights had their most healing intensive phase when there was also a lot of movement, such as sindragosa/bql et cetera. I guess it all depends on whether blizzard gives us a shiny [Glypf of Treeform] to reduce it.
I actually like this change. Assuming the tree boosts healing 15% (and given some nominal boosts to healing spells in tree), using tree blindly is about a 3-4% boost to healing. Using the tree _cleverly_ can push up the value a lot, as with all throughput cooldowns. Giving tree form a disadvantage makes this is a "skill-indexed" clicky, as they say. If the fight is a heavy movement fight, it's certainly possible to cancel tree early, or time tree between movement phases (BQL and Sind both telegraph movement).

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Old 06/10/10, 12:10 PM   #304
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Rijndael View Post
I actually like this change. Assuming the tree boosts healing 15% (and given some nominal boosts to healing spells in tree), using tree blindly is about a 3-4% boost to healing. Using the tree _cleverly_ can push up the value a lot, as with all throughput cooldowns. Giving tree form a disadvantage makes this is a "skill-indexed" clicky, as they say. If the fight is a heavy movement fight, it's certainly possible to cancel tree early.
It has huge potential for anti-fun though, when you pop it and then have to cancel it to move.


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Old 06/10/10, 12:20 PM   #305
Grend
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Beanna View Post
About the Improved Feral Charge, it might be interesting to switch to Bear form to use the bear charge to quickly return to our target (no rage problem with Furor) and then immediately switch to cat to enjoy the haste buff during 8 sec that seems, at least for now, more interesting than the buff given by the cat feral charge.
With the way Shredding Attacks is going to work (reducing the cost of ravage and shred), the benefit of being able to use ravage a few times after kitty charging may outweigh eight seconds of boosted haste.

I suppose this depends on how many times you can effectively ravage in 3 seconds (2 times?), and obviously how much damage ravage will do in comparison to a 30% melee haste increase over eight seconds.

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Old 06/10/10, 12:47 PM   #306
Xaerran
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Warrior
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
Feral (Cat): ...You have 5 spare points after filling up the resto tree and down to Berserk. ...
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=-AhiJMJCKlwdyaA.9dw.druid
Once you take Genesis, those 5 are gone. Adding more damage to bleeds makes the most sense.

Though I agree the tree looks fun, I don't see much ability to add utility. There are as many "mandatory" talents in this tree as we currently have, if not more (for Cats). You can remove the point I have in Imp. Mangle (and it to feral aggression) and you can swap points out of Imp LotP (and into feral aggression) if you have a druid tank, but I don't see much more flexibility. Thoughts?

Cat DPS Spec

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Old 06/10/10, 12:47 PM   #307
 Kurisu
So damned Devious
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Grend View Post
With the way Shredding Attacks is going to work (reducing the cost of ravage and shred), the benefit of being able to use ravage a few times after kitty charging may outweigh eight seconds of boosted haste.

I suppose this depends on how many times you can effectively ravage in 3 seconds (2 times?), and obviously how much damage ravage will do in comparison to a 30% melee haste increase over eight seconds.
It sort of depends on how much energy you can (if you do) from bear charging and gaining 15% haste and it's also dependent on what type of target it is, if it's a quick kill add then ravaging would probably win out but if it's a target switch I'd much rather start my rotation early if the energy gain is that potent.


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Old 06/10/10, 12:50 PM   #308
Deathwing
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Xaerran View Post
Once you take Genesis, those 5 are gone. Adding more damage to bleeds makes the most sense.

Though I agree the tree looks fun, I don't see much ability to add utility. There are as many "mandatory" talents in this tree as we currently have, if not more (for Cats). You can remove the point I have in Imp. Mangle (and it to feral aggression) and you can swap points out of Imp LotP (and into feral aggression) if you have a druid tank, but I don't see much more flexibility. Thoughts?

Cat DPS Spec
Genesis doesn't currently work on bleeds, no reason to think it will in 4.0. The wording definitely doesn't suggest it either.

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Old 06/10/10, 1:17 PM   #309
Beanna
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Conseil des Ombres (EU)
Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
It sort of depends on how much energy you can (if you do) from bear charging and gaining 15% haste and it's also dependent on what type of target it is, if it's a quick kill add then ravaging would probably win out but if it's a target switch I'd much rather start my rotation early if the energy gain is that potent.
Even with the Shredding Attacks talent, Ravage's cost is still 50 energy and I am rather skeptical about the number of Ravage that can be done during the short period of time of the buff.
In my opinion, this talent is definitely a PvP talent wich, coupled with Tiger's Fury, can make a very big burst on a switch. In PvE, its usefulness appears to be lower and we would probably keep CDs like Tiger's Fury or Berserker.

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Old 06/10/10, 1:32 PM   #310
OnyxShadow
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Azgalor
As it currently stands the new Tree of Life is badly designed. The problem with the movement speed handicap has already been covered. However, the real problem lies with the duration and cooldown. Especially for a resto druid trick, 45 seconds duration and 5 minute cooldown are incredibly awkward numbers. Unless the length of the average boss fight is changing drastically, this admittedly nice set of effects will be used generally once per encounter. Most situations where a healing throughput increase are useful don't last very long (about 5-15 seconds). Again, we don't know what the average encounter will be like in Cata, but that leaves a lot of time after covering the extra healing which we will simply be doing unnecessarily increased healing. In short, the design is very awkward.

Fury of Stormrage is worse, though. Its no good for balance because its too deep in the resto tree. Its no good for resto because Blizzard is making mana management harder in Cata. So why would we want to waste part of this resource on piddly damage? Now, if the instant wrath was mana-free AND off the GCD...maybe it could see some usage. But even then, the procs would be fairly sporadic and still only be as powerful as any other untalented wrath cast. My only guess is that it's intended as a PVP talent (although it still suffers from the above issues).

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Old 06/10/10, 1:33 PM   #311
klüger
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
I'm still hoping they will do/change/kill treants. Its such a mindless, pointless ability (for pve at least)

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Old 06/10/10, 1:33 PM   #312
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
It's definitely a PvP talent.

I do think a shorter duration/cooldown would be nicer for ToL form.


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Old 06/10/10, 1:35 PM   #313
Vaccine
Mr. Sandman
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Xaerran View Post
Once you take Genesis, those 5 are gone. Adding more damage to bleeds makes the most sense.

Though I agree the tree looks fun, I don't see much ability to add utility. There are as many "mandatory" talents in this tree as we currently have, if not more (for Cats). You can remove the point I have in Imp. Mangle (and it to feral aggression) and you can swap points out of Imp LotP (and into feral aggression) if you have a druid tank, but I don't see much more flexibility. Thoughts?

Cat DPS Spec
Genesis doesn't apply to our dots. Nor does it on live, so not sure where you've got that from.

I'd never take a cat build without SI either, it's too useful for a mere point. You also miss off FA when FB is likely going to become an attack we use a lot more than currently. FI is placeholder from what I understand, but even if not it's higly situational.

I'm not convinced Ravage or Imp Feral Charge for cats will have much use in PvE. Ravage is very expensive too, Charge + Ravage is 70 (60 talented) energy. I think they are more aimed at PVP stuff.

You also took Protector of the Pack which seems an odd one to take in a cat build, were you mistkaing it for something else?
#

Edit: Just realised Shred now costs more energy as the reduction is just 10, so edited some crappy math out. GC clarified Shred is 50 energy base, so talented 40 energy:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker | Cata Feral Druid talents

Last edited by Vaccine : 06/10/10 at 1:42 PM.

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Old 06/10/10, 1:55 PM   #314
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by OnyxShadow View Post
~
Fury of Stormrage is worse, though. Its no good for balance because its too deep in the resto tree. Its no good for resto because Blizzard is making mana management harder in Cata. So why would we want to waste part of this resource on piddly damage? Now, if the instant wrath was mana-free AND off the GCD...maybe it could see some usage. But even then, the procs would be fairly sporadic and still only be as powerful as any other untalented wrath cast. My only guess is that it's intended as a PVP talent (although it still suffers from the above issues).
Fury of Stormrage is mana-free if you actually look at the talent with more than a casual glance and as to the concept there is a post here stating their general reasons behind the Priest one and extending to the others. To be honest it seems to be a fair enough idea where healers have a couple of points available to add a little bit of damage if they wish to place them there (utility and all) and if anything I would say it's kind of lacking in that regard for us at the current display.


Tree of Life I agree with you because the numbers seem to fit really poorly and this is even before you see some of the undisclosed effects it provides (ie: Lifebloom) but as those are under NDA and not publicly known I guess it's best holding off on discussion on those aspects for now. Sadly without actual spell information and context to place them in judging talents for healers aren't the easiest things to try and review well.

Nature's Bounty seems too strict at +50% when under 25% and if anything I would rather reverse those numbers so that mentally people will not think "if they aren't under 25% it isn't worth casting RG" which I feel is a valid concern but again hard to fully justify without numbers on spells and general context of the Cataclysm healing environment.

There is also some potential balancing issues with the plethora of linking functions (RG + NG + NB + Deep Healing + Eff + LS) and quite honestly Efflorescence still seems very overpowered unless the healing is split like a Meteor effect although at that point it could be too weak.

Last edited by Playered : 06/10/10 at 2:21 PM.

Originally Posted by Vontre
I don't know anything

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Old 06/10/10, 3:16 PM   #315
Xaerran
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Warrior
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
Genesis doesn't apply to our dots. Nor does it on live, so not sure where you've got that from.

I'd never take a cat build without SI either, it's too useful for a mere point. You also miss off FA when FB is likely going to become an attack we use a lot more than currently. FI is placeholder from what I understand, but even if not it's higly situational.

I'm not convinced Ravage or Imp Feral Charge for cats will have much use in PvE. Ravage is very expensive too, Charge + Ravage is 70 (60 talented) energy. I think they are more aimed at PVP stuff.

You also took Protector of the Pack which seems an odd one to take in a cat build, were you mistkaing it for something else?
#

Edit: Just realised Shred now costs more energy as the reduction is just 10, so edited some crappy math out. GC clarified Shred is 50 energy base, so talented 40 energy:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker | Cata Feral Druid talents
I was mistaken about the usefulness of Genesis.

I would be surprised if Ravage isn't showcased more in this expansion. There are two talents now buffing it's abilities (three technically, but we wont count IF). Considering the changes Haste are making to energy regeneration and our attack speed, the IFC may be a very valuable talent to have...

You are correct about FI, I missed the [TBR] tag on it.

Because of the error I made on genesis and based on your questions I see the five extra talent points. At this point, I am wondering how important haste will be in the expansion.

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