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Old 06/10/10, 8:45 PM   #331
aceofsween
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
That's slightly contradictory to with some of the talents that react off being hit though.

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Old 06/10/10, 9:34 PM   #332
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by OleFrosty View Post
I thought that as well, but it could happen, and will be nice when it does. After all people will have more stamina, and stay at lower hp on average then now.

The way I read it though, Regrowth gets an extra crit bonus on a target with low hp. On top of the base +25% it shares with Nourish.

Note the last line of Nature's Bounty:
"Increases the critical effect chance of your Regrowth and Nourish spells by 10/15/20/25%."
The first implementations of talents mostly just had the first point with updated tooltips and the rest as the old tooltip of the talent it replaced (Eff was 10/15% bonus Spirit etc).

Even without the context of health levels 25% is a very low margin because even if you can't have everyone at 100% all the time that doesn't instantly correlate to having everyone near the polar-opposite. Tranquility works fine on that level due to the smart targeting nature of it and the HT one syncs well with NS/HT or using HT on low HP tanks (the intended purpose). Regrowth on the other hand will end up so stupidly strong <25% if balanced outside it or incredibly weak above 25% if balanced for that level.

Going back to "AoE burst options (we are the only healing class without them in Cata, which worries me quite a bit" seems a bit odd when you consider instant RG-Eff bombs in ToL form which seem to equate to trucks loaded with healing crashing into a healing factory while the raid is low and needing healing. You also have Tranquility, WG and instant RG (whether <25% or not) in ToL form which will equate to very strong amounts of healing especially in combination with Deep Healing.

Originally Posted by Vontre
I don't know anything

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Old 06/11/10, 1:51 AM   #333
Gerronimo
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Just a note on moonkin pvp utility. From what I can see at the moment we seem way overpowered as CC machines. For a quick list off the top of my head:

Casted single target root. no cooldown but on DR. (roots)
3 charge instant root on melee hit. On DR. (nature's grasp)
aoe instant snare. On DR? (talented mushrooms)
casted ranged knockdown. 15s cooldown, assuming there'll be a separate knockdown DR. (starsurge)
instant ranged disorient+silence. 1 min cooldown. (solar beam)
instant ranged aoe knockback+ 6s snare. 20s cooldown. (typhoon)
casted immunity. On DR. (cyclone)

From what I can see we've basically got all the CC options of hunters + cyclone + knockback + roots, without the hassle of traps. God forbid catching another team in a bottleneck! Believe me I'd love to pvp with these changes in place but don't see it happening. Thoughts?

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Old 06/11/10, 4:16 AM   #334
Vaccine
Mr. Sandman
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by xanthic42 View Post
Infected Wounds: PvP/Bear talent, only current content this is good for is Valks during p2 LK.


Optional Talents taken, most taken to move down the tree.
Nurturing Instinct: Makes healers jobs easier, personally I like it.
Furor: Taken to move up tree.
Perseverance: 4%(10% maxed) reduction on Spell Damage taken.
Infected Wounds: If you have a Warrior MT, him not having to worry about TC is pretty good, especially if as people are beginning to suspect, rage won't be such and infinite resource and threat will be more of an issue. With so many free points outside of our required DPS ones, its an option. Not for everyone but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it off the bat.

Nuturing Instinct + Perseverance: I think these are pretty much wasted talents for PvE cats. Healers won't notice a bit extra healing, if you take damage you're still going to get over-healed. Same for Perseverance, any raid damage you take has to be what others can survive assuming its meant to happen to players. 4% less spell damage is not really anything. There may be a fight where this is really beneficial (pre-nerf Freya+3 springs to mind) in mitigating some really nasty one shots, but in that case you can respec. As part of a basic spec I'd much rather for 4/5 or 5/5 Furor for times you have to shift (CR, Innvervate, etc...). It's not massive but it's better than Perseverance in my opinion, especially when we have so many survivability options already.

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Old 06/11/10, 4:27 AM   #335
Rijndael
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Playered View Post
Going back to "AoE burst options (we are the only healing class without them in Cata, which worries me quite a bit" seems a bit odd when you consider instant RG-Eff bombs in ToL form which seem to equate to trucks loaded with healing crashing into a healing factory while the raid is low and needing healing. You also have Tranquility, WG and instant RG (whether <25% or not) in ToL form which will equate to very strong amounts of healing especially in combination with Deep Healing.
Druids are strong at healing pressure, no doubt. Tranqulity is a raid CD, so I am going to leave it aside.

Let's try to analyze what Efflorescence will do. Assume we have reasonable haste (1.5 sec cast) and reasonable crit (maybe 25% crit chance). For simplicity, let's model the flower bed as just a "strong" Wild Growth proc (it's a seven second aoe hot, it may affect more targets than WG, but may also affect less because of the precondition).

In 1.5 seconds, we expect to see 0.25 of a WG. Since expectations are additive, we will expect to see 1 WG after 6 seconds. So with reasonable gear, if we cast on targets that are not below 25% HP, we get 1 "strong" WG every 6 seconds, and another "normal" WG every 10 seconds (which is the normal Wild Growth with its increased CD). As the raid HP gets lower, we end up proccing more "strong" WGs. If we are smart and predict raid damage well, we will be rewarded with more procs (just as priests are rewarded by timing PoH casts properly)

Two more data points: Revitalize now affects Regrowth, and the Rejuv GCD reduction is going away. This to me implies that Rejuv will not be competitive with Regrowth when we can stand still. So: Regrowth is going to become the go-to raid heal we use, Rejuv will become something we use on the raid when we have to run a lot. Regrowth will reward smarter play that predicts damage, and force us to handle movement issues more like other healers.

I remain dubious about the utility of the new Regrowth vs truly scary burst damage, due to it being a hot, due to the RNG aspect (burst healing should be reliable!), and due to the delivery mechanism. Another kind of "anti-fun" thing about Regrowth is that it gets worse as gear improves (and less people hit <25% mark).

edit: After some thought, feedback on Regrowth: crit chance should ramp up as target HP goes down, with full X% bonus crit at the 25% HP mark, and 0% at 100% HP (linear growth between those points, X is probably less than 50 to compensate for extra crit at higher hp values). Otherwise, the effect is too binary.

Last edited by Rijndael : 06/11/10 at 2:45 PM.

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Old 06/11/10, 4:56 AM   #336
ArcImpulse
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by OnyxShadow
Fury of Stormrage is worse, though. . . My only guess is that it's intended as a PVP talent (although it still suffers from the above issues).
Originally Posted by Playered
To be honest it seems to be a fair enough idea where healers have a couple of points available to add a little bit of damage if they wish to place them there (utility and all)
From what I've seen in the healing talent trees so far, it looks like Blizzard is trying to allow healers to do something other than "stare at bars, whack the mole." Trees will more than likely want at least 16 points in the Balance tree to get Nature's Splendor. 2 of those points won't benefit healing at all--right now, you're left with a choice between two weak DPS talents (Improved Moonfire and Celestial Focus) and two utility talents (Solar Beam and Nature's Reach). Solar Beam itself sounds incredibly interesting for PVP, 5-, and possibly 10-mans. Having more interrupters is never a bad thing, especially if it frees up a couple from the DPS and the druid isn't doing anything.

While I'll admit it would occasionally be nice to do something other than topping up health bars, I'm curious as to how far the devs want healers to deviate from the "sole job is healing" path. I wouldn't think that they would design encounters around healers doing DPS, since I was under the impression that they wanted to have fewer "mandatory" talents and more "fun" talents. However, having tanks not dying in two hits would help with the frantic pace most healers have to deal with now, meaning, hey, we might have free globals. Overall, I like what they've done with the talents so far, and also what they might be implying about gameplay in Cat.

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Old 06/11/10, 7:38 AM   #337
Balancemoon
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by aceofsween View Post
It's interesting to note that Boomkins are the only spec that seems to have talents which prop up their Mastery. The "Improved Eclipse" talent seems odd to me. I don't quite understand why that's not baseline or at least something that's handled by our Mastery stat. Maybe because the Mastery being so familiar is why I'm not all that excited about the talent changes.

Also, Balance Druids in Moonkin Form now have less armor than Resto druids in Caster or Travel form. That strikes me as strange since Moonkin Form has almost always been on par with Dire Bear form. I somehow find it hard to swallow that this won't change (i.e. reworking of Improved Barkskin).

My biggest impression from a Moonkin standpoint is that we will not see a drastic difference in PvE, but we have been given a number of very useful PvP tools: Starsurge with the knockdown effect, Solar Beam with disorient and silence (deadly if combined with roots), and Fungal Growth. Even Lunar Justice could see some use in a Battleground environment.
My issue with the balance druid 3rd mastery damage bonus at the moment is that gaining higher mastery only buffs the damage you do when the you're in a full eclipse. This is the 15secs of increased damage to starfire/wrath (at lunar/solar)when you hit the end of the slider. Mastery will give you more damage during those 15 secs. This means the mastery only benefits you for a fraction of your time, whereas everyone else has a continuous increase this is influencing all the time.

I would hope that they change this so that the mastery will also increase the amount of damage you do while moving along the slider to either end. For e.g. if the slider is moving to a lunar eclipse, mastery points from the tree and from gear will increase the amount of damage your arcane spells will deal in addition to what they are doing. So the higher mastery I have, the more damage my arcane spells will do at 75% along the lunar bar than they would do if I had less mastery from gear and talents, this in addition to doing more damage when I hit eclipse so your mastery is benefiting you round the clock. Alternatively they could just scale it such that it has an enormous impact on your 15secs of eclipse.

Nature-Arcane:
So far with the moonkin talents I would agree in that we're not a patch on the demo lock whose shadow/fier interchange makes our nature/arcane interchange seem like childsplay. On the other hand we do get something interesting.

I'm still hoping for a larger interplay with insect swarm and moonfire affecting wrath/starfire. Insect swarm is now trainable, but they have totally removed the improved insect swarm talent effect. When looking at warlock Destruction talents and watching the interplay between shadow and fire, we got ahint of that in the old improved insect swarm. Our eclipse mastery may make casting IS and MF at the same time a thing of the past. However what does that do to fights we need to keep up the debuff? Casting a nature spell will swing the slider closer to the Lunar end, something you don't want if you're moving for a solar eclipse. Which means you won't be casting it during that time. However if you do how much will you move the slider?

Ah...forgive me, only warth/starfire & starsurge will move the slider -- it is confusing because the original announcement said doing nature damage will move the slider, but now the detail has been revealed, the implication is that only wrath/starfire/starsurge will move the slider. [This isn't confirmed though - talented eclipse, lunar guidance and euphoria imply only those 3 spells affect the slider] if this is true, then the only thing that will change for moonfire, insect swarm, typhoon, hurricane and starfall is how much damage they will be doing based on where the slider in. Okay this is fine, you can keep both up and running if you need IS for the debuff. But because of this, I'd like to see Insect swarm boosting wrath damage, and wrath damage extending IS. A similar interplay between starfire and moonfire, Starfire could instead now increase the damage of the existing ticks of Moonfire [since we see a move to make the instant cast portion of MF more effective in cataclysm]. Also maybe something fun like casting wrath has a chance to knock insect swarm to a nearby target. Just a nicer interplay between the two.

So there is still work to be done, as it is I'd agree it is still to simple even though it has changed, and there is more subtle choice.

Moonkin Form:
As for moonkin form armor, this may be something that grows with level, so it starts off at 120%, but will reach 360% after a point. If it doesn't, then it is extremely disappointing that shadow priests have a more powerful shifting effect than balance druids, weren't druids supposed to be the shifting pros? Which is my big problem with moonkin form, it's just passive buffs, a skin for 3 buffs, which isn't imaginative or unique seeing that shadow priests do exactly the same if not more. So I'm hoping the form goes the ToL direction - or at least has some sort of dynamic requiring you to switch between caster and moon form several times throughout fights to maximize. An example could be at full lunar eclipse you do higher damage in moonkin form while at full solar eclipses you do more in caster form, so you only need to change from the form you like most at these points. Then they could turn owlkin frenzy into a 20-45 sec empower mode like ToL form with a 3-5min cooldown where you are casting balance spells more powerfully. This makes it more interesting and brings out the shapeshifting unique flavor.

Last edited by Balancemoon : 06/11/10 at 7:44 AM.

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Old 06/11/10, 8:14 AM   #338
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
Originally Posted by Gerronimo View Post
Just a note on moonkin pvp utility. From what I can see at the moment we seem way overpowered as CC machines. For a quick list off the top of my head:

Casted single target root. no cooldown but on DR. (roots)
3 charge instant root on melee hit. On DR. (nature's grasp)
aoe instant snare. On DR? (talented mushrooms)
casted ranged knockdown. 15s cooldown, assuming there'll be a separate knockdown DR. (starsurge)
instant ranged disorient+silence. 1 min cooldown. (solar beam)
instant ranged aoe knockback+ 6s snare. 20s cooldown. (typhoon)
casted immunity. On DR. (cyclone)

From what I can see we've basically got all the CC options of hunters + cyclone + knockback + roots, without the hassle of traps. God forbid catching another team in a bottleneck! Believe me I'd love to pvp with these changes in place but don't see it happening. Thoughts?
Minor corrections and additions (I think these are right):

Disorient is no longer in the solar beam description (I agree it was a bit much).

Based on the earlier leaks, I got the impression that mushrooms would take at least two instant casts (1 to place a mushroom, and 1 to detonate). Even earlier statements said they worked on proximity, so you might be right.

It may be optimistic to call a 2s cast, single-target knockdown a CC, but ok.

You left off Bash, the new Bear Kick (trained, should be off GCD), and some PvPers will play with Feral Charge back at tier 3. Also, some balance players occasionally manage a pounce, or even a maim.

Talented Barkskin and Treants can Daze, although dazing a melee who is right next to you is of limited benefit.

Hibernate.

WTB: PvP keyboard layout. Better yet, another finger or two.

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Old 06/11/10, 9:48 AM   #339
Balancemoon
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Legion (EU)
Disoreintate on Solar beam was meant for melee - and since it is easily picked up by restos it may be too much for them. not for balance.

I had a close look at the different effects each caster dps has, and counting disorientate of solar beam and knockdown of starsurge, believe it or not the spec still has the least amount of tools at pvp. I can understand you feeling it is overkill if you've only played balance, but looking at what everyone else has, it seems fine, remember the disorientate didn't last long. Shame it's gone though.

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Old 06/11/10, 2:26 PM   #340
Thendariel
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
Healers won't notice a bit extra healing, if you take damage you're still going to get over-healed.
If you get heavy dmg it will help a lot healer that +20% more healing. Probably in Cata nobody will be keeped on 100% hp because higher cost of overhealing and many talents that incres healing when you have low hp.

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Old 06/11/10, 4:20 PM   #341
Mjoedgaard
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
Infected Wounds: If you have a Warrior MT, him not having to worry about TC is pretty good, especially if as people are beginning to suspect, rage won't be such and infinite resource and threat will be more of an issue. With so many free points outside of our required DPS ones, its an option. Not for everyone but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it off the bat.

Nuturing Instinct + Perseverance: I think these are pretty much wasted talents for PvE cats. Healers won't notice a bit extra healing, if you take damage you're still going to get over-healed. Same for Perseverance, any raid damage you take has to be what others can survive assuming its meant to happen to players. 4% less spell damage is not really anything. There may be a fight where this is really beneficial (pre-nerf Freya+3 springs to mind) in mitigating some really nasty one shots, but in that case you can respec. As part of a basic spec I'd much rather for 4/5 or 5/5 Furor for times you have to shift (CR, Innvervate, etc...). It's not massive but it's better than Perseverance in my opinion, especially when we have so many survivability options already.
I belive you have missed everything Blizzard have said regarding healing on cataclysme. They have stated that a healer have to make choices betwen the small and light on mana heals, the fast but expensive heals and the long but medium on mana heals. They also said that they want dpsers to think about not taking to much dmg as that will drain healers mana to quick. Therefor any talent there can help healers out even by recieving more healing or taking less dmg from spells is a major plus.

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Old 06/11/10, 7:06 PM   #342
Salita
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by Mjoedgaard View Post
I belive you have missed everything Blizzard have said regarding healing on cataclysme. They have stated that a healer have to make choices betwen the small and light on mana heals, the fast but expensive heals and the long but medium on mana heals. They also said that they want dpsers to think about not taking to much dmg as that will drain healers mana to quick. Therefor any talent there can help healers out even by recieving more healing or taking less dmg from spells is a major plus.
I can't quite see healers not attempting to top everyone off. It will likely be done still, just slower and with more attention to overhealing.

The issue here would be for healers to mentally calculate the healing bonus gained for just ferals / some other classes than can pick up similar talents. 20% of a heal may be hard to quantify. While i'm sure that will be somewhat viable for 10 mans (well, many will switch to this anyway), in 25 mans it would just be information overload as I see it.

One solution to this would be to have addons that display the health that would be gained from different heals, but again, information overload. The various healing estimations (such as the one visible on grid at the moment) can't tell you how much you heal before you click the button either.

I'm not saying these talents will be useless, and it's possible skilled healers will be able to take them into account.

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Old 06/11/10, 7:28 PM   #343
Mjoedgaard
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Salita View Post
I can't quite see healers not attempting to top everyone off. It will likely be done still, just slower and with more attention to overhealing.

The issue here would be for healers to mentally calculate the healing bonus gained for just ferals / some other classes than can pick up similar talents. 20% of a heal may be hard to quantify. While i'm sure that will be somewhat viable for 10 mans (well, many will switch to this anyway), in 25 mans it would just be information overload as I see it.

One solution to this would be to have addons that display the health that would be gained from different heals, but again, information overload. The various healing estimations (such as the one visible on grid at the moment) can't tell you how much you heal before you click the button either.

I'm not saying these talents will be useless, and it's possible skilled healers will be able to take them into account.
Yea I understand that, but im pretty sure the talents there increase healing or reduce dmg taken will be very valueble in hardcore progression where everylittle things matter.

Also consider how much Blizzard is telling us they are going to change healing and mana, I dont belive everyone will be at 100% all the time (Blizzard have given several hints about this) and there reduced dmg or increase healing will still be a help,

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Old 06/11/10, 10:51 PM   #344
Obligatory
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Cenarius
I have a feeling that people are over-reacting to the statements about players not always being at 100% HP, and healer mana becoming important again. The emphasis from blizzard posters has been less about having healers so constrained by mana that they will be unable to keep players at full health, but rather that players will not be in constant peril that requires them to be at full HP all the time. Thus, while raid healers may not have the mana to cast a direct heal on every player below 90%, they also won't need to; they can trust HoTs, smart heal bounces, JoL, etc. to keep most players out of the danger zone, and concentrate primarily on DPS who are in the ~30% range.

Survival talents will certainly remain helpful, but unless they start popping up all over DPS trees (which isn't the case so far, but that can easily change), I doubt that they will be mandatory. Survival as DPS will still remain a function primarily of awareness and reaction on the part of the player, because otherwise it would be tanking

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Old 06/12/10, 3:26 AM   #345
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
Originally Posted by Obligatory View Post
I have a feeling that people are over-reacting to the statements about players not always being at 100% HP, and healer mana becoming important again. The emphasis from blizzard posters has been less about having healers so constrained by mana that they will be unable to keep players at full health, but rather that players will not be in constant peril that requires them to be at full HP all the time. Thus, while raid healers may not have the mana to cast a direct heal on every player below 90%, they also won't need to; they can trust HoTs, smart heal bounces, JoL, etc. to keep most players out of the danger zone, and concentrate primarily on DPS who are in the ~30% range.

Survival talents will certainly remain helpful, but unless they start popping up all over DPS trees (which isn't the case so far, but that can easily change), I doubt that they will be mandatory. Survival as DPS will still remain a function primarily of awareness and reaction on the part of the player, because otherwise it would be tanking
If your healers aren't prioritizing targets on 30% over ones at 90%, I think you might have an issue there
Smart heals like CoH and WG are getting a higher CD and increased mana cost. JoL is a unique raid debuff and as such I suspect will go away instead of granting it to more classes, or maybe it will be nerfed to match iLotp in which case it won't be particularly reliable.

As for damage reduction (this is also a reply to another post), saying that because only ferals can spec them they're not mandatory since "the other DPS are meant to survive as well" is just far off. Trust me, your healers wish every single DPSer had the current incarnation of Predatory Instincts, and I'm sure every feral would spec it even without the added damage it brings. I assume you spec into feral swiftness even though "all DPS are meant to be able to move out of the fire anyway"? A lot of healing priests spec 5/5 into spell warding - which is pretty similar to Perseverance, I'd say.

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