The MM hunter in 4.0.1 - Page 15

♦ Tobin · 10/15/10, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by nbuubu

However for now, it's just to goddamned complex. Especially without Fox. Having to refresh Chimera every 10 seconds with its massive 44 focus cost is just too difficult while on the move and even with Fox it's going to be a pain in the ass.

I think it only feels complex because of how erratic our focus regen can be at any given moment. Try something along the lines of this on a dummy:

Chimera -> Arcane to sub 22 focus -> 6x Steady to cap focus

I did 2 million damage worth of that (didn't use RF/Readiness/CotW) and was maintaining ~10.2K dps. I didn't finesse at all either, opting to use a 6th steady shot to overcap focus rather than reduce my ISS refresh interval with an odd number. After firing a string of arcanes, the remaining duration of ISS would be just long enough until the next 2 steadies completed.

Stinkles · 10/15/10, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Nbstrong

Please don't use that log I posted to get data for anything more than the effects of high values of haste on hunters. Anything else might be inaccurate because other stats were sacrificed for haste.

More reading to do, and then more incoming.

The problem with using Arcane Shot spam is that yes, it does more damage per focus than chimera. But it does less damage per focus than chimera + serpent sting. Chimera is used to refresh serpent sting and that it pretty much it's only use at the moment.

In theory, yes but until we get new ilvl gear in cata and agi triples on gear to match the scaling, the effectively 3 arcane shots you get by avoiding initial application of serpent and chimera isn't worth it. It might be during the very beginning and any long term stationary period. If serpent manages to fall off, thats almost another arcane shot focus-wise to reapply + the initial, and as you say above, without it the reapplication effect, the chimera is wasted. The time you spend trying to maximize the results of the above is better spent elsewhere. Add in the extra wild quiver proc's going off and its looking to be a no brainer

nbuubu · 10/15/10, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tobin

I think it only feels complex because of how erratic our focus regen can be at any given moment. Try something along the lines of this on a dummy:

Chimera -> Arcane to sub 22 focus -> 6x Steady to cap focus

I did 2 million damage worth of that (didn't use RF/Readiness/CotW) and was maintaining ~10.2K dps. I didn't finesse at all either, opting to use a 6th steady shot to overcap focus rather than reduce my ISS refresh interval with an odd number. After firing a string of arcanes, the remaining duration of ISS would be just long enough until the next 2 steadies completed.

I can get all sorts of nice numbers vs a dummy. Vs a boss? With lots to do? Arcane Spam > Priority Rotation for me. By a LOT.

Blizzard wants hunters to bring a lot of utility. Hell, our pets replicate almost every raid buff. And we misdirect, and tranq, and CC, among everything else. And we also have to run out of the fire.

The intended MM optimal rotation leaves no room for error, and with the new queuing system it's very easy to fire off an extra unintended Arcane or two, which, if you're trying to maintain Serpent with Chimera, is unbelievably unforgiving.

We'll see how things work at 85 but right now I really despise the way our focus is working.

Stinkles · 10/15/10, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Nbstrong

The reason why people are seeing haste as a weak stat is that it A) It takes more haste rating to reach meaningful changes in haste (same goes for removing haste rating) and B) Even large changes in haste are not really changing our rotations or increasing our focus regen enough to see noticeable dps increases.

We are seeing that about 14% haste is needed to have an "optimal" rotation. Past that you are getting more of a cushion for error. I have a feeling haste is going to be more of a skill factor and as you get better you will need less of it.

As far as its effect on mastery, I am not convinced that it is as strong as we are thinking. Mastery procs from all our shots and we are already firing one special about every second (except steady which is every 1.5 seconds usually).

In 3 minutes with a change of 153 haste rating-
24.67% haste - 85 auto shots
20.01% haste - 81 auto shots

4 extra auto shots influenced by a % chance to fire an extra wild quiver. At very high levels of mastery I could see haste becoming more important but remember, we have some of the highest combat ratings ever at the moment and we probably won't see these ratings until at least mid-endgame at 85.

Crit on the other hand, has a very direct relation to how much damage we do. It gives a % chance on every shot (just like mastery) to double the damage of that shot (as opposed to +115% weapon damage).

You are right that haste is a skill factor and we will need less of it as we adjust. There is no optimal rotation though. Those dropping haste are basing it on the what would be optimal conditions. I haven't seen anyone have a raid boss dps increase from what they were doing by dropping haste other than on a target dummy using the optimal rotation under optimal conditions. On the other hand, I and others have experienced an increase in dps by dropping large amounts of crit.

Originally Posted by nbuubu

Stats? I was ArPen capped and with BIS in all slots but 3. Can't remember the specifics of Haste and Crit because I only cared about ArPen.

DPS? My numbers are definitely down. By 2-3k dps in most fights. I did 14.5k in the Sind Heroic 25 kill two weeks ago, and 12.5k last night.

But looking at WoL everyone's DPS in my guild is down. Especially the Fury Warriors, even with the hotfix. We all just relied far too heavily on ArPen, and Blizzard is ignoring the fact that Hunters also relied heavily on ArPen.

Going to take some time for everyone to relearn their class. Jury's still out on hunters for me, but I'm not liking the playstyle right now at all. It feels like playing Protoss vs a double Zerg rush with all the crap I have to monitor.

Blizzard's one big mistake is sticking Aspect of the Fox so late in the hunter tree. It demolishes hunter twink PvP for every bracket and makes re-learning MM for PvE far too unforgiving.

Again, same results I had. I then reforged crit and kept the haste and saw numbers higher than I had pre-patch.

♦ Tobin · 10/15/10, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by nbuubu

I can get all sorts of nice numbers vs a dummy. Vs a boss? With lots to do? Arcane Spam > Priority Rotation for me. By a LOT.

Blizzard wants hunters to bring a lot of utility. Hell, our pets replicate almost every raid buff. And we misdirect, and tranq, and CC, among everything else. And we also have to run out of the fire.

The intended MM optimal rotation leaves no room for error, and with the new queuing system it's very easy to fire off an extra unintended Arcane or two, which, if you're trying to maintain Serpent with Chimera, is unbelievably unforgiving.

We'll see how things work at 85 but right now I really despise the way our focus is working.

Simplification is why my proposed version of the shot queue attempts to bunch the steady shots together. If you truly have an excess amount of focus regeneration, then insert arcane shots after even numbered steady shots.

1) Always try to fire an even number of steady shots. Odd numbered shots eat into the ISS buff's uptime.
2) Don't get too hung up over slightly overcapping focus.
3) Delay Chimera until you need to fire it, 2-3 seconds before Serpent drops is enough. Sometimes Serpent Sting's debuff timers start ticking from 17s for me instead of 15.
4) By delaying Chimera and firing it only when you are at or near 100 focus, you should have 3 arcane shots at your disposal when you need to move.

siegeman13 · 10/15/10, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tobin

That's why my proposed version of the shot queue attempts to bunch the steady shots together, to simplify everything. If you truly have an excess amount of focus regeneration, then insert arcane shots after even numbered steady shots.

1) Always try to fire an even number of steady shots. Odd numbered shots always eat into the ISS buff's uptime.
2) Don't get too hung up over slightly overcapping focus if it means firing that even numbered steady.
3) Delay Chimera until you need to fire it, 2-3 seconds before Serpent drops is enough. Sometimes Serpent Sting's debuff timers start ticking from 17s for me instead of 15.
4) By delaying Chimera and firing it only when you are at or near 100 focus, you should have 3 arcane shots at your disposal when you need to move.

Tobin is correct - I was using this method for my own sanity check on wednesday.

To hunters learning to play the new MM build - I propose the following -

While using your cooldowns and readiness when available, do a rotation as follows:
-above 88 focus spam arcane until you are at or below 22 focus
-spam steady shots until you are at or above 88 focus
-when Aimed Shot procs - use it and then burn the rest of your focus with arcane
-rinse and repeat.

Once you have that basic concept you will then increase your dps by ~500 by using chimera/serpent as follows:
-open up with Serpent Sting followed by Chimera (or visa versa depending on your preference for cooldown timing) and then:

-at above 88 focus first refresh chimera and then spam arcane until you are at or below 22 focus (if chimera is not yet ready then use one arcane and then chimera followed by another arcane)
-spam steady shots until you are at or above 88 focus
-when Aimed Shot procs - use it and then burn the rest of your focus with chimera if up or arcane
-rinse and repeat.

As far as I can tell maximizing your mastery is the most important, reforging the highest stat on an item (typically crit) to mastery seems to be the best. As others have mentioned, you should convert your crit to mastery because haste scales nicely with mastery... haste also provided benefits to you for fights that require more movement (for focus regen purposes and more autoshots/wildquivers in time).

You will see some hunters claiming high dps - this tends to be due to the current normalization of ranged weapons bug in this release - guns and crossbows at slower speeds scaled very high compared to bows... don't stress about this too much as it will likely be fixed in upcoming patches.

nbuubu · 10/15/10, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tobin

Simplification is why my proposed version of the shot queue attempts to bunch the steady shots together. If you truly have an excess amount of focus regeneration, then insert arcane shots after even numbered steady shots.

1) Always try to fire an even number of steady shots. Odd numbered shots eat into the ISS buff's uptime.
2) Don't get too hung up over slightly overcapping focus.
3) Delay Chimera until you need to fire it, 2-3 seconds before Serpent drops is enough. Sometimes Serpent Sting's debuff timers start ticking from 17s for me instead of 15.
4) By delaying Chimera and firing it only when you are at or near 100 focus, you should have 3 arcane shots at your disposal when you need to move.

Are you trying this rotation in an actual fight? Not vs dummies? All I care about is being the most effective in raid this week. Not at 85 or vs a dummy. The way our stats are, with all this crit and the limited mastery, means I'm personally more effective with arcane spam. So are my fellow guild hunters, and other people.

It's too complex and requires too much precision with the change to shot queuing with everything else we're expected to do. Which means it's not FUN to play as a "maximised" MM hunter right now.

Your rotation should only be attempted on fights when you have a long time to stand still. If you have to move, or pay attention to anything else at all, you shouldn't ever bother with Serpent or Chimera.

Take Heroic Halion for instance. As one of two raid hunters I need to run out of fire, maintain a Misdirect on the Living Inferno to the MT at every meteor, and run to drop off the occasional big fire circle thing that escapes my memory right now. In phase two I need to run to avoid the cutters and run to drop off the occasional big shadow circle thing that escapes my memory right now. And look at all the constant movement in Heroic LK with the debuffs to drop and different colored fires and crap to avoid.

Try maintaining the optimal rotation with Serpent and Steady EVER in those fights.

I don't know if Blizzard will really change this any time soon. And they won't really care if people stop using Chimera, nothing's scaled properly and we're supposedly "balanced" for 85. The max dps is still following the intended rotation perfectly. But in an actual raid environment it's too tight to reasonably expect anyone to do this priority without Aspect of the Fox.

If people can pull this rotation off while on the run and maintaining both Serpent and ISS on short durations, please post a video and I'll applaud. Maybe I will again in time. But right now Arcane spam is closer to the MM Hunter experience I know and have played for years.

Nbstrong · 10/15/10, 4:48 PM

Ok, trying to understand how haste affects Steady Shot cast time and came upon something strange.

Haste__________cast time___% reduced
0.0%______________1.96___2% (from my 2/3 in Pathing)
13.45%____________1.73___13.5%
16.25%____________1.69___15.5%
ISS (15%)__________1.71___12.76%
RF (40%)___________1.31___34.5%
Glyphed RF (50%)____1.31___34.5%

Glyph of Rapid Fire is working, it just isn't reducing the steady shot cast time, as it still reduces the autoshot time more than unglyphed Rapid Fire.

♦ Tobin · 10/15/10, 5:01 PM

The only difference between my rotation and "arcane spam" is watching serpent sting's timer and perhaps planned movement. You don't even have to watch ISS as siegeman13 elaborates. Once you pool more than 88 focus with steady shot, your ISS will be at 8s. You will exhaust that focus with one chimera and 3 arcanes, leaving you 4 seconds on the buff. At this point you will logically be steadying again.

Using Heroic Lich King for example...

P1 I only move a couple of steps for shadow traps, and it's so slow that in patch 3.3.5 I often found myself waiting for aimed and chimera to come off cooldown before moving out.

P1.5 - Remorseless Winter, completely stationary.

P2 I wouldn't play defiles any differently, you run out for them and run back in. Just before the Valkyr drop, I would bank focus with steady spam, run out and then start single targeting my assigned valk, while multishotting every 4 seconds or so. I will set-up my second MM spec with 2/2 Concussive Barrage just for this.

P2.5 - Same as P1.5

P3 The worst part of this phase is the Wicked Spirits because you are constantly moving, yet you still need to DPS them. Fortunately they have insignificant health and steady shots between multishots kill them just fine. Vile Spirits if done right will not force you to move too much.

It's as much about anticipating movement as it is about the shot queue itself. Going to move in the next few seconds? Cap your focus by spamming steadies.

Whitefyst · 10/15/10, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Arafeek

I'm thinkin bout a bit of an unconventional spec, and rotation as a MM. MM Spec 0/31/5

Pretty much I dropped the 2 points in OwN (only 36ap), and picked up Imp SrS in the Survival Tree.

Notice the 3 Prime Glyphs I have, are also the only shots I plan on using in my rotation.
[Glyph of Arcane Shot]
[Glyph of Steady Shot]
[Glyph of Serpent Sting]

The Rotation:
SrS > Arcane Dump > SSx2 > Arcane Dump

You pretty much go on like that, making sure that ISS is always up, usuaing ur instant AiS, and as soon as SrS drops u put it back up.

Projected Stats for test
Mastery: 20%
Haste: 20%
Crit: 55%
AP: 6200

I'll be gone this weekend so I will not be able to test it in a raid situation, but by all means if someone else get's a chance have at it.

Considering the change to ISrS to also provide 10% more critical strike chance to the ticks, ISrS is now probably better at two points spent currently than the 36 AP from OwN. So I can agree with the suggested spec change.

However, I do not agree with the addition suggested changes in glyph and rotation.

Before evaluating the benefit of the SrS glyph, let's look at the pros and cons between using CS to refresh SrS or recasting it. I am using Geoph's log that was posted to get numbers from since I do not have any of my own logs.

Focus Cost: CS 44 vs. SrS 25 - this is a difference of 19 focus every say 13s or 1.46 fps
Damage: CS 15156 vs SrS instant of 2756 (3850)
-- Note CS average damage includes the PS and is (33% * 7396) + (66% * 14642 * 1.3)
-- SrS average tick damage includes the 10% extra crit and is (23% * 1837) + (76% * 2822) = 2567. This is the same for both CS and SrS refreshes.
-- Now I do not know whether the 30% on the total periodic effect includes crits or just the normal ticks. I assume its just the normal ticks and is not dynamically calculated until I learn otherwise. Hence, the 30% is 0.3 * 1837 * 5 = 2756. If it includes the crits dynamically somehow then its .3 * 2567 * 5 = 3850.

Thus, the trade off is 12400 (11306) damage versus 19 focus.

To compare, we need to convert that 19 focus to damage. Since the cost to replace a SS with a ArS is 31 focus, this is roughly 61.3% of the damage difference between an ArS and a SS (normalized to a 1s cast). With not easily being able to determine is average SS cast time, I will assume 1.3. Hence, the damage difference due to 19 focus is (with including PS effect on SS):

0.613 * (11179 - (7893/1.3)) = 3131 DPS

The 12400 (11306) > 3131. Hence, using CS to refresh SrS is better than recasting.

Now let's look at the situation when using the SrS glyph. The difference here is another 6% crit. Hence, it increases to 2756 (3940). Making the direct damage difference being now only 12400 (11216). If only the flat tick rate is used to determine the instant damage, then the glyph has no impacts on the choice of whether to refresh by CS or recast. If the crits are used, then the glyph only adds on 90 more damage to the instant cast. In addition, it only adds about 60 more damage to the average tick, for a total of of a whopping 390 more damage per SrS cycle per the glyph. This makes it pretty clear that the CS refresh wins.

Furthermore, and this is the killer, taking the SrS glyph means not taking the KS glyph, which is a huge increase in DPS. With assuming being able to do 2 KS in 12s with factoring in different usages and inefficiency, the glyph still increases your KS rate and damage by 40% and KS costs no focus. I will not crunch the numbers here since I believe that we can all agree that it is not even close.

Additionally, using CS to refresh SrS provides the additional benefit of healign 5% of your health. This may not matter that much now, although it is beneficial, but it should matter more in Cata.

Thus:
1) If you are going to use SrS and refresh it, it is best refresh it with CS instead of recasting
2) The SrS glyph is not one of our best 3 options since it does not provide much benefit and has great costs in regards to what other glyph you have to replace

Edited for Ufthak reminding me that the SrS glyph changed to 6% more crit. That is a much easier comparison than with the 6s extension.

siegeman13 · 10/15/10, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Tobin

P3 The worst part of this phase is the Wicked Spirits because you are constantly moving, yet you still need to DPS them. Fortunately they have insignificant health and steady shots between multishots kill them just fine. Vile Spirits if done right will not force you to move too much.

It's as much about anticipating movement as it is about the shot queue itself. Going to move in the next few seconds? Cap your focus by spamming steadies.

You make a valid point here that carries to dpsing "trash" with multiple targets - my initial thoughts would be:
-at around 100 focus use two multishots (maybe three due to bombardment)
-spam steady shots until you are around 100
-when Aimed Shot procs - use it and if above 40 focus (or 20% if bombardment procced) use multishot otherwise use steady shot
-rinse and repeat.

Other ideas would be to use explosive traps in this mix.

Stinkles · 10/15/10, 5:35 PM

So cap from steadies before moving, then what while moving? Arcane spam.
That's kinda what the last two pages have been about.
I just find it not worth my time or energy trying to retarget to chimera before serpent falls off or waste the focus when it does.

onesound · 10/15/10, 5:42 PM

I reforged all my crit into mastery and left my haste alone. But I recently tried haste into mastery and left crit alone and the results where worse. Not sure if I am doing something wrong or not.

Whitefyst · 10/15/10, 5:47 PM

There have always been times previously where it was too much of a hassle when working multiple targets to retarget to the SrS target to refresh it. That has not changed, except for the additional limiting factor of maybe not having enough focus, but that can be planned around. On those kind of fights, you always have to modify your attack approach from the single target fights.

However, if you are working on a single target, for the 44 focus spent, it is more DPS to use CS to refresh SrS than to do 2 ArS, plus it heals you 5% and saves a GCD. Many of you are just comparing the 2 ArS damage versus the CS and are totally leaving out the damage of the ticking SrS that is maintained on the target which continues to do damage while you move or wait for focus.

So if you only have 44 focus:
- If SrS is on the target, CS to refresh and take 1s break if you can't cast SS
- If SrS is not on the target, use 2 ArS

dres · 10/15/10, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by siegeman13

You will see some hunters claiming high dps - this tends to be due to the current normalization of ranged weapons bug in this release - guns and crossbows at slower speeds scaled very high compared to bows... don't stress about this too much as it will likely be fixed in upcoming patches.

The damage bug on guns and xbows has been fixed, but you need to delete cache folder to see the right damage.