The MM hunter in 4.0.1 - Page 29

Skrape · 10/25/10, 1:07 PM

Are we set on our *rotation* yet?

i've been using:

steady x4 > arcane x2 > chimera

assuming sting is on the target and using aimed when it comes up free.

this rotation seems very natural.. everything timing and focus wise seems to fall into place. 4 steady gives me enough focus for both arcanes and the chimera and my chimera timer is coming up right after the 2nd arcane is finished.

Adex · 10/25/10, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Skrape

Are we set on our *rotation* yet?

i've been using:

steady x4 > arcane x2 > chimera

assuming sting is on the target and using aimed when it comes up free.

this rotation seems very natural.. everything timing and focus wise seems to fall into place. 4 steady gives me enough focus for both arcanes and the chimera and my chimera timer is coming up right after the 2nd arcane is finished.

What about while you're under the effect of Rapid Fire? Also, one instant Aimed Shot proc will probably ruin your nicely done rotation.

trracer · 10/25/10, 5:01 PM

Can someone check if the Pala 3% Damage Buff works for Hunters?
Today we had a BM Hunter witch gives the 3% Buffs (this works in the Charscreen) after he was leaving we had a Retributionpala. But the 3% Buff was gone for me in the Charscreen.

sorry for the bad english

Eelowynn · 10/25/10, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by trracer

Can someone check if the Pala 3% Damage Buff works for Hunters?
Today we had a BM Hunter witch gives the 3% Buffs (this works in the Charscreen) after he was leaving we had a Retributionpala. But the 3% Buff was gone for me in the Charscreen.

sorry for the bad english

Did the paladin have an aura up? Havent checked it myself, though.

Edit: and that's probably not the right thread for this question.

Tunza · 10/25/10, 6:23 PM

Some direct feedback from Ghostcrawler on the weapon speed normalisation issue from a conversation between Frostheim and GC posted on the Warcraft Hunter's Union website:

Weapon Speed Normalisation - Warcraft Hunter's Union

One of the things we’ve been noticing as we try to unravel the strangely inaccurate shot formulas is that our shots appear to no longer be normalized for weapon speed. This means that if we have two weapons with the same dps, whichever one is slower will actually do more damage, and thus more dps, on our special shots (well, any of the special shots that use base damage, like Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, etc.).

I asked whether this was deliberate or something that slipped in, and Ghostcrawler said that he wasn’t 100% sure off the top of his head, but he thought it was deliberate. He said it would be somewhat controlled by the fact that Cataclysm ranged weapons don’t have much variation in their weapon speed. He compared it to rogues who he said also care about weapon speed, but just don’t have a ton of weapon speed choices on the gear end of things.

He then asked me what weapon speeds for ranged weapons currently were in Cataclysm, and of course it was my turn not to be sure off the top of my head. I’ve since looked it up, and indeed it’s a far narrower range, from 2.7 to 3.0. No more 2.2 or 1.7 or other crazy fast weapons out there, and generally the green quality ones tend to be the fastest.

Update: Ghostcrawler has since confirmed that was not deliberate! Normalization was accidentally removed and they will be making a change to normalize our shots — all shots except Scatter Shot will be normalized.

He also confirmed, by the way, that the tooltip formulas are indeed incorrect for many of the hunter shots. The reason is that they’re constantly tweaking some of those coefficients, so what’s on the server isn’t the same as what’s on the client tooltip. Sadly the actual tooltips wont be correctly updated until the Cataclysm launch patch, he thought.

Duw · 10/26/10, 6:43 AM

With the buff to Chimera Shot, whats the view on using the glyph? Still recommends using steady, kill and arcane on the original post, and I can't remember reading discussion on the implications of a 9 second "rotation" vs a 10 second "rotation".

Nyth_ · 10/26/10, 7:57 AM

Originally Posted by Duw

With the buff to Chimera Shot, whats the view on using the glyph? Still recommends using steady, kill and arcane on the original post, and I can't remember reading discussion on the implications of a 9 second "rotation" vs a 10 second "rotation".

Well chimera is still not big enough for it to matter when you exactly fire it. Anywhere between every 10 and 15 seconds is ok. When i have like 2 second left on CS i will do 2 SS and push back CS somewhat to refresh ISS; and that does my dps more good than to cancel that second SS and cast CS on cooldown.

So in that line of thought the glyph wouldn't add too much.

On the other hand. If you get enough haste for SS to become a 1.5 second cast. You can fit exactly 4 steady shots 2 arcane shots and 1 chimera shot in a 9 second rotation. I really dislike rotations for the new focus mechanic because they are inflexible and disallow adjusting in the heat of a fight.
But in that case you could go for it.

I personally find myself delaying a CS by 1-2 seconds regularly so I don't think a -1 sec CD would do myself much good.

Looking at Frostheim's conversation with Ghostcrawler though, it seems that the "core shots" should indeed become more powerful in the future, so maybe things turn around again then.

Duw · 10/26/10, 8:35 AM

Cheers for the feedback. Funnily enough, i do have my steady at <1.5 as I like having it at that speed for Survival too. I think I'll have a play with it when I get a chance. It ll be worth looking at the amount of focus maintained using the 9 second Chimera - would the more frequent use of chimera balance out the focus needed such that we wouldn't get focus capped? Also whether there'd be a more effective timing of our steady pairings with a 9 second Chimera. Guess a difficulty lies in varying focus regen rates.

Mythdia · 10/26/10, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Nyth_

Looking at Frostheim's conversation with Ghostcrawler though, it seems that the "core shots" should indeed become more powerful in the future, so maybe things turn around again then.

links:
Frost and GC
BlizzConQ&A

Blindeye · 10/26/10, 12:10 PM

A quick thread search finds no discussion about this, so I thought I'd toss this out here, as I'm a bit confused on reforging, mastery, and Wild Quiver.

Wild Quiver on WowHead shows the 14.4% chance/1.8% increase per point, however I noticed in game last night that it now reads 17% base and 2% per point.

Now I'm no math wizard, and maybe someone can clarify (so perhaps the OP can be edited too), if it starts at 17% now, and I'm able to get 18 points of Mastery (roughly), am I correct that I'd have 53% chance to proc Wild Quiver (17% + (18*2)%)?

Again, whether the math is correct or not, I can't say, that's why I come here. I hope we can get some clarification.

Also, I haven't seen any recent discussion about which stat(s) to reforge to Mastery, if any. I understand excess hit goes to Mastery (and I'm as of last night right on the 8.00% cap), but how should one forge haste or crit? If I reforge my remaining items' crit to mastery, I lose at most 6% crit (down to 49%) to gain roughly the same amount of Mastery (which, I understand, is a little low, no?). My haste isn't down to 1.5 SS just yet, and if I forged away haste, I'll get even less Mastery (haven't checked numbers, but there's much less haste rating then crit on my gear, if I remember).

Am I correct in forging crit for mastery, and saving my haste? Are there guidelines for what to forge (after excess Hit->Mastery) that could be put into the OP? Is the new tooltip for Wild Quiver correct, and did WQ get a buff?

Excalin · 10/26/10, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Blindeye

Now I'm no math wizard, and maybe someone can clarify (so perhaps the OP can be edited too), if it starts at 17% now, and I'm able to get 18 points of Mastery (roughly), am I correct that I'd have 53% chance to proc Wild Quiver (17% + (18*2)%)?

with no mastery rating you start with 8 mastery which is where the default number is based off of....did you count this 8 as part of that 18 in your math?

I have about 20ish+ total Mastery that gives me about 36% proc rate that I have tested on the dumbies just doing auto shot and looking at total shot counts. So I have no reason to believe that the summary page of the talents window to be wrong (should display your current benefit with all rating)

The issue I am having with reforging is not knowing how my stats rate on my dps (Maxdps, female dwarf, and here havent given me those numbers yet). I know in theory Mastery > crit and haste, but no clue how much crit and haste differ from each other to know which to pick after extra hit. even if I assume crit>haste or haste>crit I don't know that difference to make a proper educated choice for better dps. Example being the hunter T10 helm....you have way more crit then haste....so even if I assumed crit>haste I dont know if changing the lesser haste to a little mastery is better then changing the better but much bigger crit stat to more mastery will win out on the charts.

MizarAlcor · 10/26/10, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Blindeye

A quick thread search finds no discussion about this, so I thought I'd toss this out here, as I'm a bit confused on reforging, mastery, and Wild Quiver.

Wild Quiver on WowHead shows the 14.4% chance/1.8% increase per point, however I noticed in game last night that it now reads 17% base and 2% per point.

Now I'm no math wizard, and maybe someone can clarify (so perhaps the OP can be edited too), if it starts at 17% now, and I'm able to get 18 points of Mastery (roughly), am I correct that I'd have 53% chance to proc Wild Quiver (17% + (18*2)%)?

The 17% you saw (or probably 16%?, tootlip error?) comes from the 8 points base mastery you obtained when first training the "Mastery" skill. And yeah, if purely basing it on the tooltip number, if you can obtain an additional 18 mastery (for a total of 26 mastery points) you will have 52% WQ proc. However, getting 18 mastery points from gear amounts to ~827 mastery point rating required from gear at level 80. You will lose quite a significant amount of haste or crit in the reforging process to attain that number with current gear.

As for possible approximate crit and haste potential "beneficial breakpoints", you can find extensive writeup on it on the previous pages.

Nooska · 10/26/10, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Excalin

with no mastery rating you start with 8 mastery which is where the default number is based off of....did you count this 8 as part of that 18 in your math?

I have about 20ish+ total Mastery that gives me about 36% proc rate that I have tested on the dumbies just doing auto shot and looking at total shot counts. So I have no reason to believe that the summary page of the talents window to be wrong (should display your current benefit with all rating)

The issue I am having with reforging is not knowing how my stats rate on my dps (Maxdps, female dwarf, and here havent given me those numbers yet). I know in theory Mastery > crit and haste, but no clue how much crit and haste differ from each other to know which to pick after extra hit. even if I assume crit>haste or haste>crit I don't know that difference to make a proper educated choice for better dps. Example being the hunter T10 helm....you have way more crit then haste....so even if I assumed crit>haste I dont know if changing the lesser haste to a little mastery is better then changing the better but much bigger crit stat to more mastery will win out on the charts.

The intuitively correct choice is to reforge crit or haste depending on which stat you have the most of (and using that). For this example I define haste as better than crit, and mastery as better than both (the last part is already true).
Item A has 100 crit and 60 haste. Item B has 120 Haste and 80 crit. Reforging both to mastery gives us 2 choices, converting all crit to mastery (because haste is better than haste for this example), converting the highest stat to mastery. Method 1 gives us a total of 72 Mastery rating, 180 haste rating and 108 crit rating. Method 2 gives us 88 mastery rating, 140 crit and 132 haste over the 2 items. Since Mastery is better than crit or haste, without a doubt, then the skewing for haste in method 1 needs to be better than slightly more mastery (16 rating), more crit (32 rating) and less haste (48 rating) - or the loss from 48 rating has to be larger than the gain from the 16 (in this case) mastery rating and the lower loss of crit (in this example).
If we accept that mastery is the best rating stat for us currently, then the obvious thing to do is to reforge whichever is the higher stat, regardless of their individual weights, as the probability of them hitting a threshold is very low.

Lilyana · 10/26/10, 5:17 PM

It doesn't really change our DPS a great deal so long as you dot the i's and cross the t's - that is keep sting up and chimera on permanent cooldown. Steady and arcane are pretty much 1:1 ratio when chimera is on cooldown. You'll be firing one steady for one arcane. How you organise will depend on the fight.

You are right to suspect it is a gear issue. For MM, I notice that my WQ damage is in 4th place on recount lower than most of my shots at 37% mastery.

But this is the kicker, and where theorycrafting might yield some bugs: With just 2% more mastery bringing it up to 39% mastery, WQ became the most damaging shot I did in first place. It also reflected with a real world dps jump of 1,800 DPS average over 5 million damage on the dummies.

The question is why is there such a big difference in WQ damage with a relatively small hike of 2% mastery from 37% to 39%?

dres · 10/26/10, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lilyana

It doesn't really change our DPS a great deal so long as you dot the i's and cross the t's - that is keep sting up and chimera on permanent cooldown. Steady and arcane are pretty much 1:1 ratio when chimera is on cooldown. You'll be firing one steady for one arcane. How you organise will depend on the fight.

You are right to suspect it is a gear issue. For MM, I notice that my WQ damage is in 4th place on recount lower than most of my shots at 37% mastery.

But this is the kicker, and where theorycrafting might yield some bugs: With just 2% more mastery bringing it up to 39% mastery, WQ became the most damaging shot I did in first place. It also reflected with a real world dps jump of 1,800 DPS average over 5 million damage on the dummies.

The question is why is there such a big difference in WQ damage with a relatively small hike of 2% mastery from 37% to 39%?

Did you have any proc items on? Like T10 bonus, trinkets etc, that can happen when you get lucky on WQ procs under Haste and AP buff.
Like in LK 25 hc P1, my WQ damage was floating between 1st and 4th of my damage done, on several attempts.