The MM hunter in 4.0.1 - Page 31

Rivkah · 10/29/10, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Actually we do know. I made some tests a while ago and it looks like base pet focus regeneration is 5 fps and scaling normally with hunter haste. That is, if you´ve got 10% haste you´ll have 4*1.1 = 4.4 fps and your pet has 5*1.1 = 5.5 fps. As far as my testing went only rating based haste is transfered to the pet though. I didn´t test it very throughoutly though.

Hmm, the original testing data I was given did not indicate pet focus regen was scaling with hunter haste. If that's the case I'll need to update some stuff on the site. It actually won't likely change much at 80 since for MM we're already swimming in pet focus with 2 pts in sic'em (bestial discipline is definitely unnecessary for MM at high crit rates), but at 85 pet focus regen is going to be far more important, with our general stats being way lower and the ability to go to 2 pts in wild hunt.

wolferrr · 10/29/10, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Eikichi

edit : I'm getting some weird results around 732 hast.

I stopped at 722Haste rating = 22%.
and +3% from Pathing =25%
Looks like a possible haste cap)

MizarAlcor · 10/29/10, 7:53 PM

Originally Posted by wolferrr

I stopped at 722Haste rating = 22%.
and +3% from Pathing =25%
Looks like a possible haste cap)

Haste effects stack multiplicatively with each other and with the haste obtained from gear, not additively. In your case, total haste will be 25.66% from (1.22*1.03)-1, not from 0.22+0.03. We can also safely assume that 15% haste buff from ISS is always up on MM's haste calculations. The raid buff and dynamic haste effects are a bit more situational, depending on each individual's circumstances and preferences.

♦ Tobin · 10/29/10, 8:48 PM

It seems weird that many of us are reforging hit to mastery while also using several agi/hit gems to achieve socket bonuses. The best course seems to be reforging stats like haste to hit until we get at least 236 hit rating. We'd then be able to stick one agi/hit gem in an item like T10 chest for the +6 agility socket bonus, while stacking every other blue (and some yellow) sockets with agility gems.

In essence, reforging haste to hit gives us way more bang for the buck and also allows us to stack more agility. We end up losing some haste, a few socket bonuses and possibly some crit/mastery, but not enough to outweigh the gains.

pradashoes · 10/29/10, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tobin

In essence, reforging haste to hit gives us way more bang for the buck and also allows us to stack more agility. We end up losing some haste, a few socket bonuses and possibly some crit/mastery, but not enough to outweigh the gains.

I did this originally, when I was testing what the improvements to hard capped hit would look like for my crit table. When I was done messing around, I ended up just going for 8% from gear (and reforging the rest to mastery) I stacked agil gems, and it seems like the DPS on a dummy is between 10-15% higher (i can't count out procs though b/c the bow). Is this diffeent from what you are saying? or is there something I am missing?

Esoth · 10/29/10, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

Hmm, the original testing data I was given did not indicate pet focus regen was scaling with hunter haste. If that's the case I'll need to update some stuff on the site. It actually won't likely change much at 80 since for MM we're already swimming in pet focus with 2 pts in sic'em (bestial discipline is definitely unnecessary for MM at high crit rates), but at 85 pet focus regen is going to be far more important, with our general stats being way lower and the ability to go to 2 pts in wild hunt.

I was basing it off of this post: Hunter Pet Scaling in Cataclysm – Warcraft Hunters Union It doesn't mention crit, but with about 80% self-buffed crit on a target dummy that no one else was attacking my pet only crit or had glancing blows so I would imagine they scale with crit too (which I believe is intended).

Actually we do know. I made some tests a while ago and it looks like base pet focus regeneration is 5 fps and scaling normally with hunter haste. That is, if you´ve got 10% haste you´ll have 4*1.1 = 4.4 fps and your pet has 5*1.1 = 5.5 fps. As far as my testing went only rating based haste is transfered to the pet though. I didn´t test it very throughoutly though.

They get 10% haste from wind fury, but that is direct and not inherited. So really they just don't get rapid fire, improved steady shot, and focus fire?

♦ Tobin · 10/29/10, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by pradashoes

I did this originally, when I was testing what the improvements to hard capped hit would look like for my crit table. When I was done messing around, I ended up just going for 8% from gear (and reforging the rest to mastery) I stacked agil gems, and it seems like the DPS on a dummy is between 10-15% higher (i can't count out procs though b/c the bow). Is this different from what you are saying? or is there something I am missing?

Specifically, the DPS analyzer (femaledwarf.com) is giving me these values (ignoring the heavy swings between certain amounts of haste):

+1 hit = +6.738 dps
+1 agi = +5.652 dps
+1 rdps = +3.23 dps
+1 mastery = +2.967 dps
+1 crit = +2.585 dps
+1 haste = +1.564 dps
+1 ap = +1.16 dps

Most raiding hunters are currently gemming for bonuses with glintings in every blue socket and deadlies/defts in every yellow socket. According to the above dps/stat values, we should instead be reforging haste to the hit cap and only using one glinting for our meta requirement. Example: Gear with red/yellow/blue sockets and a +8 agi socket bonus should be packed with three agility gems.

Stinkles · 10/30/10, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Tobin

It seems weird that many of us are reforging hit to mastery while also using several agi/hit gems to achieve socket bonuses. The best course seems to be reforging stats like haste to hit until we get at least 236 hit rating. We'd then be able to stick one agi/hit gem in an item like T10 chest for the +6 agility socket bonus, while stacking every other blue (and some yellow) sockets with agility gems.

In essence, reforging haste to hit gives us way more bang for the buck and also allows us to stack more agility. We end up losing some haste, a few socket bonuses and possibly some crit/mastery, but not enough to outweigh the gains.

Since the only way to get mastery for the time being is reforging, most will want to opt to reforge everything possible into mastery and make up elsewhere.

The only reason I could see doing this is if you need an exorbitant amount of hit that would require you to use hit gems in the majority of your slots. Then, yes it would be more bang for your buck. There's enough necks/rings to itemize without needing more than 3 hit gems so you can pick up mastery through reforging.

♦ Tobin · 10/30/10, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Stinkles

Since the only way to get mastery for the time being is reforging, most will want to opt to reforge everything possible into mastery and make up elsewhere.

The only reason I could see doing this is if you need an exorbitant amount of hit that would require you to use hit gems in the majority of your slots. Then, yes it would be more bang for your buck. There's enough necks/rings to itemize without needing more than 3 hit gems so you can pick up mastery through reforging.

Three hit gems is two too many.

Hit rating is more dps than mastery. Reforging something of value into less value for a dps loss makes no sense. Agility is second only to hit in dps. By reforging for more hit, you are directly gaining the highest dps stat according to femaledwarf.com, and indirectly you are gaining more agility because you don't need to use as many agi/hit gems.

Rivkah · 10/30/10, 1:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tobin

Most raiding hunters are currently gemming for bonuses with glintings in every blue socket and deadlies/defts in every yellow socket. According to the above dps/stat values, we should instead be reforging haste to the hit cap and only using one glinting for our meta requirement. Example: Gear with red/yellow/blue sockets and a +8 agi socket bonus should be packed with three agility gems.

Actually according to those numbers, a 6 agility socket would be worth using a glinting to pick up (assuming you were reforging to mastery with the excess hit from your gear), since you're comparing 4 agil from a 20 agil gem (after subtracting the 6 agil from the bonus) to 10 mastery. 4 * 5.652 = 22.608 < 10 * 2.967 = 29.67. A 4 agil bonus wouldn't be worth it though since 6 * 5.652 = 33.912. Yellow sockets would be pretty much the same, since in the end you're likely to end up converting whatever spare stat you get from the yellow gem into another stat via reforging if it's inferior to the stat you want (assuming you're aiming to keep a certain amount of haste/crit and not reforging everything off).

I'd agree that 8 agil bonuses wouldn't be worth gemming for (in my case I regemmed the day of the patch and haven't done much raiding since, so I haven't bothered regemming). The dps values for stats are varying a lot from person to person though, so depending on circumstances 6 agil bonuses may not be worth picking up either.

I'd also say that getting hit as close to the cap as possible without wasting it may be worth slightly less optimal gemming in some circumstances. Since hit over the cap is completely wasted (except for draenei till they fix pets inheriting the hit), if you can get the number closer to the cap with an extra gem as opposed to an extra reforge, it may be worth it even if normally it'd be a slightly loss to socket that way.

♦ Tobin · 10/30/10, 1:46 AM

Correct, a +6 agility bonus such as the one in [Nerub'ar Stalker's Cord] would be worth picking up, but the +4 agility bonus in [Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance] isn't worth it by a hair.

As far as I can tell, we should actually be avoiding gear with +hit rating on it, and instead opt to reforge as much haste as needed to reach the hit cap. This is going against the conventional wisdom of the past couple of weeks.

MizarAlcor · 10/30/10, 3:57 AM

The way I see it, at least under "ideal condition", the glinting purple gem and reforging essentially allow both blue socket bonus and yellow socket bonus to be weighed similarly with each other. Basically, a 10agi/10 hit gems are theoretically equivalent to a 10agi/10(haste/crit/mastery) gem under this "ideal condition", i.e. where there are enough precise number of existing hit on gear that can be exactly converted to the same number of haste/crit/mastery, whichever is most desired. Remember, as the numerical values of reforgable stats on our gear balloon up on expansion gears, it will be harder to fine-tune hit rating to the nearest possible rating amount desired (cap).

Based on this, it can be easily said that if a certain yellow gem socket bonus is worth gemming for, the same can be said with the same socket bonus if it is to happen on a blue socket, and vice versa.

The change to Agi->AP conversion post-patch pretty much elevates Agi's stat weigh for non-SV to be as high as, if not higher, than Agi's stat weigh to an SV pre-patch. Depending on exact stat weigh for each person, but SV generally forwent +4 Agi yellow socket bonus, but still gemmed for +6 Agi yellow socket bonus. Same guideline can be applied for post-patch socket bonus weighing, only that both yellow and blue socket can now be weighed with equal guideline.

Arukie · 10/30/10, 7:23 AM

I noticed something regarding the difference in dps between orc and troll when using femaledwarf.com.
By choosing orc, I gain 352.1dps compared to troll. This seems extremely high. Am I missing something or is this a bug? I know the new version still is a bit buggy but it may also be that I am missing out on something.

Fluflis · 10/30/10, 8:43 AM

Haste is a strange stat for a hunter's spreadsheet. thus it cant be evaluated easily. I was always getting that haste has a value lower than crit for my hunter (pretty much BiS except loots from LK hc and Hallion hc), but playing gem by gem, changin 10agi/10crit into 10agi/10haste you can see different ups and downs. I replaced 6 gems in total, one by one. Haste was lower than crit at all times, yet after i replaced them all, it was a dps increase according to the analyzer.

kull07 · 10/30/10, 9:50 AM

One reason you might see a noticeable difference in dps between Orc and Troll is if ur a troll and dont have a Bow equipped, so ur not gaining the +1% crit, thereby leaving you with only berserking.

Since pet are doing quite a bit more damage right now the 5% pet damage bonus is all the better by being Orc, and adding Blood Fury I think its pretty clear which racials is better right now, but over 300 dps difference between the 2 sounds to be too much.