Hunter Simple Questions / Simple Answers: Cataclysm Edition - Page 23

Rivkah · 02/28/12, 9:35 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Here is an example using my character as SV for a 1m (unfortunately FD cannot do shorter) run with using RF and with all buffs/debuffs immediately on the target

Just to clarify, you can do shorter on my site- you can enter a decimal place (like 0.2) but it looks like my error checking for it doesn't account for leaving off the 0 before the decimal. I'll add to my list of things to fix.

Note that there may be some things which don't smooth out properly over very short fights as my testing hasn't ever really focused on them. In some cases buffs may be assumed to run full durations which could throw things off (and I believe BA damage is calculated just by casts and not how many ticks completed). I'll take a peek at this as well next time I have some free time.

Fincher · 03/22/12, 3:37 PM

Simple Question: is it worth Swapping Madness Normal weapons with 410 HC weapons back and forth mid-fight?

Further explanation:

The DS normal weapons of Madness ilvl403 are better DPS wise than the 410 Weapons from Heroic pre-Madness Bosses, the reason being their procs chances of a bonus Shot/Agility boost. However, while there are no procs, the Heroic Weapons are better because their Base Damage and Base Agility Attribute is higher, and they give you Rating, crit or whatever, so Ideally it should be best to wait for a Madness Weapon Proc(s) and equip the HC 410 Weapon(s) afterward, and then equip the Madness normal weapons again after their internal Cooldown refreshes.
However, you lose one GCD whenever you swap a weapon so is it still improving the DPS?

Hamsda · 03/23/12, 9:37 AM

I'm not 100% certain with the staff but vishanka does not have a ICD if I remember correctly. Or at least it is very short because I see it procc quite often on single or multi target with my hunter alt. Together with the gcd and reset auto shot timer you'd invoke by swapping each time I believe it will not be worth it.
The staff may have an internal CD but the time between proccs is not too long either and I don't think you can unequip kiril one the procc went off because it should fade.
Weapon swapping in general has probably been no benefit to any class since blizzard introduced the gcd after swapping weapons.

Lilbitters · 03/23/12, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Fincher

Simple Question: is it worth Swapping Madness Normal weapons with 410 HC weapons back and forth mid-fight??

No, Kiril (and any other item able to be equipped) invokes the ICD when the item is equipped.
Kiril has a 55 second ICD. You can start combat with it and gain the buff, then 20 seconds later exchange it for Heroic Spire (which in one of the cases, guarantees your hit rating will be either under or over cap, thus wasting stats).
At that point you could DPS with Heroic Spire for 35 more seconds before Kiril's ICD would be finished in your inventory.
However, if you attempt to equip Kiril again, it will immediately initiate the 55 second internal cooldown, making it unable to proc the stacking agility bonus.

This would essentially double the duration of Kiril's ICD (from 55 to 110 seconds) at the gain of using that stats of Heroic Spire for 35 seconds, which surely would be a DPS loss.

Secondly, Vishanka has a 15 second ICD on the Speaking of Rage proc which I personally tested while configuring an addon. Attempting to weapon-swap will again initiate the ICD when you reequip the bow, again making the proc ICD double.

cmwilli · 03/28/12, 9:17 PM

Using this Profile, FD shows the following after accounting for any necessary reforging to cap hit.

410 Horn 410 Spire
45025.65 DPS +/-0
403 Vishanka 410 Spire
44889.67 DPS -135.98
410 Horn 403 Kiril
44836.71 DPS -188.94
403 Vishanka 403 Kiril
44683.01 DPS -342.64

Simulation Craft shows the following after accounting for any necessary reforging to cap hit.

410 Horn 410 Spire
44749.5 DPS -84.0
403 Vishanka 410 Spire
44833.5 DPS +/-0
410 Horn 403 Kiril
44568.4 DPS -265.1
403 Vishanka 403 Kiril
44640.1 DPS -193.4

I do not know what to do when two reputable sources disagree. What is the next step in analysis? I could run several LFR's to get real data, but it would take way too much time to get a reliable number of data points.

I am inclined to believe SimC over FD because SimC varies fight length mitigating issues with over valuing haste and shot shifting. However I don't know what, if any, advantages FD has over SimC so I'm not sure how much weight to assign its numbers.

daimonie · 03/29/12, 6:40 PM

The disagreement is in Horn vs Vishanka, when using Kiril,fury of beasts.

In FemaleDwarf, proc effects are averaged out, and it shows Horn (without proc) > Vishanka (With proc).
In Simulation Crafct, proc effects are simulated, and it shows Vishanka (With a proc) > Horn (Without a proc).

The reason for this disagreement seems to be that Vishanka and kiril,together, give a better profile at the higher end when simulated. Assuming that, on average, both two proc-effects are simulated such that they give the same average as FemaleDwarf, simcraft gives the dual-proc system a higher end because of the dps gain when they go together, instead of loose. This shifts the median value to a bit higher for the dual-proc system, with a certain change in variance due to the fact that the two events don't coincide.

Calling X vishanka, Y kiril, what we have is E (X+Y) = Expected (X+Y) = E(X) + E(Y) in femaledwarf - but it would be E(X+Y) = E(X)+E(Y)+correlation(X,Y). [ I'm not sure about the last term there, but it is a correlation effect, i believe]

This explanation seems plausible, even though I miss the theory to explain it in terms of statistics.

Fincher · 03/31/12, 1:07 PM

Thank you for your Explanations, here is ze next Questin:

For Survival Hunter, how long do masses of Mobs have to live to have explosive trap being a better choice than Multi Shot with Serpent Spread. For Example, I imagine explosive trap is the choice when the mobs live longer than it's duration, and a poor choice if they die 1 second after it is triggered. Where is the line?

cmwilli · 04/01/12, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by daimonie

The disagreement is in Horn vs Vishanka, when using Kiril,fury of beasts.

In FemaleDwarf, proc effects are averaged out, and it shows Horn (without proc) > Vishanka (With proc).
In Simulation Crafct, proc effects are simulated, and it shows Vishanka (With a proc) > Horn (Without a proc).

The reason for this disagreement seems to be that Vishanka and kiril,together, give a better profile at the higher end when simulated. Assuming that, on average, both two proc-effects are simulated such that they give the same average as FemaleDwarf, simcraft gives the dual-proc system a higher end because of the dps gain when they go together, instead of loose. This shifts the median value to a bit higher for the dual-proc system, with a certain change in variance due to the fact that the two events don't coincide.

Calling X vishanka, Y kiril, what we have is E (X+Y) = Expected (X+Y) = E(X) + E(Y) in femaledwarf - but it would be E(X+Y) = E(X)+E(Y)+correlation(X,Y). [ I'm not sure about the last term there, but it is a correlation effect, i believe]

This explanation seems plausible, even though I miss the theory to explain it in terms of statistics.

I'm not sure why you focused in kiril since both FD and Simc agree that spire is better. But to extrapolate, are you saying the choice is between a higher median dps vs higher potential dps if the procs line up with others. If that is the case, it would be very diffilcult to tell since the number and timing of procs is a very large data set.

Fincher · 04/15/12, 4:08 PM

Oke I have a Question about the Initial Rotation for Fights like Ultraxion where you can't appply Hunter's Mark before the fight.

What to do first? Start Attack and cast Hunter's Mark or use other Stuff first, like Kill Command on BM, Explosive Shot on SV? What about Serpent Sting? Is it advised to cast it before Hunter'S Mark or After. Also is it recommended to cast Serpent Sting before or after Using your main Damage Source like Kill Command as BM or Explosive Shot as SV?

Whitefyst · 04/15/12, 4:21 PM

Hunter's Mark (HM) is a big AP boost for you and your pet. Hence,...

If you are the only hunter in your raid and the target with live longer than 20-25s (which Ultraxion does for most raids), you want to cast HM as soon as possible and then start specials. For situations like this, its good to have a HM macro that will start attack too when pressed with certian modifiers. Until you cast HM, then all of your attacks are gimped.

If there is more than 1 hunter in the raid, then assign the lowest DPS hunter with the duty to cast HM at the start of combat.

Somethings to remember: If you cast Serpent Sting or Black Arrow before the HM, then the AP for these abilities will be at the lower non-HM amounts until they are recast or refreshed.

Nooska · 04/16/12, 8:20 AM

And to follow up on Whitefysts repsonse, since you specifically mention BM, you want to do HM, then BW before KC and SrS.

Fincher · 04/23/12, 2:04 PM

Are you sure?HM Tooltip says it gives Ranged attack power so I didn't think the pet also benefits of HM.

Also, it gives a Set amount of Attax Power while Serpent Sting gives 10% which i believe is very much for when close to BiS in all Items and fully epic Gemmed. Serpent Sting also starts ticking faster if I start with it.

But if you still say HM is better even after this I will change the Rotation.

Whitefyst · 04/23/12, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Fincher

Are you sure?HM Tooltip says it gives Ranged attack power so I didn't think the pet also benefits of HM.

Also, it gives a Set amount of Attax Power while Serpent Sting gives 10% which i believe is very much for when close to BiS in all Items and fully epic Gemmed. Serpent Sting also starts ticking faster if I start with it.

But if you still say HM is better even after this I will change the Rotation.

Our pets inherit from our ranged AP for their AP.

If you can Serpent Sting instead of HM first, Serpent Sting does not start ticking faster, it only ticks 1 GCD sooner. Thus, the only thing you lose by the 1 GCD delay in Serpent Sting is a 33% change to lose the last tick of Serpent Sting depending on where in the 3s Serpent Sting cycle the fight stops.

If you cast HM first, then Serpent Sting does more damage right away due to that extra AP instead of waiting until it gets refreshed/recast to that higher AP if you reversed the order.

Regardless of whether you do HM-SrS-then start the rotation or SrS-HM-start the rotation, Serpent Sting is still on the target before you cast any other damage ability (except maybe one autoshot - but it may be hitting the target anyway before the SrS debuff is up for the extra damage). However, the Serpent Sting damage bonus only affects our ranged attacks; hence, if you do Serpent Sting first then HM, your pet's initial attacks will be at lower damage (unless it was in the process of running to the target).

Either way, in the grand scheme of things, it really does not matter which you cast first, but casting HM first works out slightly better from my math.

Nooska · 04/24/12, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by Fincher

Are you sure?HM Tooltip says it gives Ranged attack power so I didn't think the pet also benefits of HM.

Also, it gives a Set amount of Attax Power while Serpent Sting gives 10% which i believe is very much for when close to BiS in all Items and fully epic Gemmed. Serpent Sting also starts ticking faster if I start with it.

But if you still say HM is better even after this I will change the Rotation.

HM is better, Whitefyst has gone into it on SrS, though SrS should be pushed 2 gcds more as BM: [HM, BW, KC, SrS] for 4 reasons.
First is that you want BW up first to get the damage bonus to run for the entire duration (untill refresh) of your first SrS. Second you want to keep KC on as tight a cycle as you possibly can. Third SrS doesn't increase a BM's damage (apart from its own contribution), and fourthly, if you apply SrS before BW or KC, you will have to reapply it, since it runs out before you run out of focus for KC and AS and hitting a CoS - it does not if you keep it tight and push it those 2 gcds.

Nevyr · 05/05/12, 11:19 AM

Is there a particular pet I should be leveling with or is it purely a personal preference pre-85.