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Old 01/11/11, 5:15 PM   #286
Aikha
Glass Joe
 
Troll Druid
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by cadavus View Post
ES and BA take a 25% hit. Those two abilities account for roughly 35% of our total damage. Which means our total damage takes an (.35 * .25) 8.75% hit.
BA nerf is on base damage. Actual damage nerf is like 3~% if my math is good.

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Old 01/11/11, 5:19 PM   #287
Kesslyr
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
I wonder how the new Serpent Spread will work - i.e. if it'll prioritize targets without SrS over refreshing the current one (if there are available). That would reduce the nerf damage at least.

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Old 01/11/11, 5:23 PM   #288
KergeKacsa
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Ragnaros (EU)
Originally Posted by Aikha View Post
BA nerf is on base damage. Actual damage nerf is like 3~% if my math is good.
According to FD.com the nerfs means about 2k (from 22,5k DPS on live).

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Old 01/11/11, 5:24 PM   #289
phatb
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Hunter
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by cadavus View Post
According to MMO-Champion, the news is not good. Not good I say!

Beast Mastery
•Master's Call now has a 40 yards range, up from 25 yards. Cooldown reduced to 35 sec, down from 1 min.

Marksmanship
•Concussive Shot now dazes the target for 6 sec, up from 4 sec.

Survival
•Black Arrow base damage has been reduced by 25%, down from 2400 to 1800.
•Explosive Shot now deals [ 20.5% of Ranged AP + 340 ] damage, down from [ 27.3% of Ranged AP + 454 damage ]
•Deterrence now increases the chance melee attacks will miss you by 100% instead of increasing your parry chance.
•Hunter vs. Wild now increases your total Stamina by 5/10/15%, up from 4/7/10%.
•Serpent Spread now affects up to 4 targets.


I thought I read somewhere that they were going to buff BM and MM and slightly nerf Surv. Well, no buffs for the other two, but Surv got hammered.
ES and BA take a 25% hit. Those two abilities account for roughly 35% of our total damage. Which means our total damage takes an (.35 * .25) 8.75% hit.
Additionally, serpent spread now hits up to 4 targets, instead of hitting everybody

Into the Wilderness (passive) has been reduced to a 10% Agility increase, down from 15%. Don't forget about this also. *Ouch*

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Old 01/11/11, 5:30 PM   #290
aijlad
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by cadavus View Post
According to MMO-Champion, the news is not good. Not good I say!

Beast Mastery
•Master's Call now has a 40 yards range, up from 25 yards. Cooldown reduced to 35 sec, down from 1 min.

Marksmanship
•Concussive Shot now dazes the target for 6 sec, up from 4 sec.

Survival
•Black Arrow base damage has been reduced by 25%, down from 2400 to 1800.
•Explosive Shot now deals [ 20.5% of Ranged AP + 340 ] damage, down from [ 27.3% of Ranged AP + 454 damage ]
•Deterrence now increases the chance melee attacks will miss you by 100% instead of increasing your parry chance.
•Hunter vs. Wild now increases your total Stamina by 5/10/15%, up from 4/7/10%.
•Serpent Spread now affects up to 4 targets.


I thought I read somewhere that they were going to buff BM and MM and slightly nerf Surv. Well, no buffs for the other two, but Surv got hammered.
ES and BA take a 25% hit. Those two abilities account for roughly 35% of our total damage. Which means our total damage takes an (.35 * .25) 8.75% hit.
Additionally, serpent spread now hits up to 4 targets, instead of hitting everybody
MM did get a buff, they just aren't showing the previous 4.0.6 patch notes on MMO Champ. Chimera Shot and Aimed Shot both got a buff. Kill Command also got a buff.

According to a Blue Post I saw they did fix the haste regen problem and somehow Cobra Shot and Steady Shot are also scaling with Haste. I don't exactly understand that last statement, so if anyone could enlighten me I'd love to read your wisdom. How do CoS and SS scale with Haste now and what does that even mean?

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Old 01/11/11, 5:53 PM   #291
Gonkish
Soda Popinski
 
Gonkish's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by aijlad View Post
MM did get a buff, they just aren't showing the previous 4.0.6 patch notes on MMO Champ. Chimera Shot and Aimed Shot both got a buff. Kill Command also got a buff.

According to a Blue Post I saw they did fix the haste regen problem and somehow Cobra Shot and Steady Shot are also scaling with Haste. I don't exactly understand that last statement, so if anyone could enlighten me I'd love to read your wisdom. How do CoS and SS scale with Haste now and what does that even mean?
The haste scaling was probably a mistake or miscommunication on their part. I'm not sure if they're talking about haste rating or haste effects (like Windfury/Hunting Party). Only time will tell.

Overall, this all seems a bit drastic. They're punishing Survival without really buffing Marks or BM, which seems more than a little counterproductive. Buffing Chimera, Aimed, and Kill Command by small amounts does nothing to solve the problems of Marks or BM, it only serves to slightly improve them. Basically, this may be too much. Fortunately, this is the sort of stuff they can hotfix later.

My biggest concern here is that they might simply overdo it and end up making our DPS completely mediocre, without any relevant alternative from Marks or BM. I hope that's not the case, because I'm sick of being mediocre DPS. I would actually like to be able to compete on a reasonable basis. Sure, Survival is probably too good right now. Yes, that means it needs to be tweaked downwards. This may be too much, however. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

How can you help?
I can shoot things and then make my pet move toward them.

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Old 01/11/11, 6:18 PM   #292
26thraider
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by aijlad View Post
MM did get a buff, they just aren't showing the previous 4.0.6 patch notes on MMO Champ. Chimera Shot and Aimed Shot both got a buff. Kill Command also got a buff.

According to a Blue Post I saw they did fix the haste regen problem and somehow Cobra Shot and Steady Shot are also scaling with Haste. I don't exactly understand that last statement, so if anyone could enlighten me I'd love to read your wisdom. How do CoS and SS scale with Haste now and what does that even mean?
It is a mistake. SS and CoS are lumped together with Slam, which doesn't scale with Haste. If they hadn't mentioned Slam it would be reasonable to expect it was some extra scaling or sorts, but Slam is going to behave differently from now, yet it is hard to imagine the focus shots changing much. And from what I have heard from PTR people, they are exactly the same. I pray that those people are wrong.
In conclusion, this comment is in line with the old Agi = 2 AP in Wrath by GC, and isn't entirely different from something like "Explosive Shot now ignore armor". Basically disregard it. It is however a little concerning that it is considered a counterpoint to the heavy nerfs.
At least the HP bug is being fixed, not that the eventual change is very big (most likely more important for melee classes), but they have finally given us the confirmation that it was wrong.

A lot of people run around with their hands in the air claiming that Explosive Trap is now better single target DPS. I think they read the reduction as a full 25%, and not base damage. It should still be comfortably ahead in total. The main worry is if the more LnL procs can make up for it. Regardless of BA being more damage, the fact is that it is still talented. It should be a clearcut winner, especially considering it is a 31 pointer, it should be more than a few DPS added. People should want to pick it. It is alright that Explosive trap is there for those that don't want BA, but competitive?

I did expect some sort of Serpent Spread nerf, but this one seems skewed. Multishot is decidedly poor on it's own, as evidenced by the other two specs. Which is still a problem for them I might add. Possibly we can expect a buff to multishot in one of the next builds. As noted by others, the impact could be lessened a fair bit if the game is somehow a bit intelligent and applied serpent stings to unstinged targeted when we multishot. In that case I can see this nerf making some sense.

A lot of people at other places are yelling BM nerf of 3.0.8, but this isn't anywhere near that. Besides, this is only the second build. Seeing what was put out in the first, combined with this, the picture if getting a little clearer, but as we can see here, it isn't crystal clear yet.

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Old 01/11/11, 6:47 PM   #293
Noleafclover
Von Kaiser
 
Noleafclover's Avatar
 
Worgen Hunter
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Esoth View Post
You have a low amount of haste. If you aren't gearing/reforging for 757 or so you can expect a lot more arcane shots, and the value of that glyph rises accordingly. At least, that's what I'm seeing with femaledwarf and the like and actual raid experience. I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, just that this arcane-less play style is most likely tied to having very low haste.
That's interesting. Could you please explain where the extra Arcanes come from?
So far I understand we have two possible alternatives:

1) We use 3 shots-> ES rotation. The 3 shots are typically 3 cobras. Sometimes one of the cobras will be replaced with BA or possibly an Arcane (though it's debatable if it's really a gain over cobra). Haste does not significantly increase the number of Arcanes because even if you finish the third shot before ES comes off cd, you just wait a short time until it does, so the focus gain remains unchanged. Beyond 757, we tend to treat haste as junk, as it only affects our auto-shots and pet auto-attacks. Rather than trying to increase the number of shots, we try to increase the damage of those we do shoot by stacking crit and mastery.

2) We use 4 shots -> ES rotation. We don't wait for ES to come off cd and always start the 4th cast regardless. This way we get many more cobras and the extra focus flow also allows us to replace at least some of them with arcanes. We conciously delay our ES however, and fire fewer of them over the course of the encounter. Haste remains a very powerful stat for us (probably equal to crit and superior to mastery) as it shortens the delay of ES. However, haste itself still does not increase the number of arcanes we can fire. The faster focus gain coming from casting Cobras more quickly is immediately consumed by being able to cast ES more quickly (as it's "natural" 6 second cd is no longer the limiting factor).

So, in either scenario adding more haste should not significantly affect the frequency of Arcane Shot, though admittedly in the second case you are going to shoot many more arcanes and also it makes sense to keep stacking haste if you go for the second rotation while it's completely pointless in case of the first one. These however, are just two independent side effects of choosing either 3 or 4 shot rotation and have nothing to do with any direct correlation between haste and being able to shoot more arcanes.

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Old 01/11/11, 8:50 PM   #294
Shibam
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Hellscream
Originally Posted by Difool View Post
That isn't really a relevant question. If you have a haste rating of 1000+ then you either reforged to get that rating, or you have it from gear you haven't yet reforged. The game gives you (in most cases) the ability to shift it someplace else. The assertion that is being tested is that regardless of where it came from, anyting over 757 haste is less optimal as long as you can get it someplace else that is reasonable (e.g., not expertise or dodge).

If the assertion is that "you have 1000+ haste without sacraficing Crit or other stats and you CAN'T reforge it to crit or other stats" then I think that asserion would only apply to a much higher teir than is obtainable today.

And of course all of this is based on an unreasonably simplified model, but I think that differences in numbers are large enough to demonstrate the point. After a haste rating of 757 it is the very likely the worst stat for SV, regardless of changing shot rotations.

I have ran into a problem which I couldnt find an answer for searching these forums. But on the analyzer, if I reforge all mastery slots to haste... it puts me at 1000+ haste rating, and a big increase in DPS. If I then go in and change some of those "mastery->haste" to "mastery->crit" it lowers my DPS significantly. I tried removing Arcane Shot glyph, and putting in the serpent sting glyph(thinking maybe I was getting more glyphed arcane shots in with the extra haste) but it still shows the haste > crit passed a 750 rating.

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Old 01/11/11, 10:57 PM   #295
Esoth
Bald Bull
 
Esoth's Avatar
 
Pandaren Hunter
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Noleafclover View Post
2) We use 4 shots -> ES rotation. We don't wait for ES to come off cd and always start the 4th cast regardless. This way we get many more cobras and the extra focus flow also allows us to replace at least some of them with arcanes. We conciously delay our ES however, and fire fewer of them over the course of the encounter. Haste remains a very powerful stat for us (probably equal to crit and superior to mastery) as it shortens the delay of ES. However, haste itself still does not increase the number of arcanes we can fire. The faster focus gain coming from casting Cobras more quickly is immediately consumed by being able to cast ES more quickly (as it's "natural" 6 second cd is no longer the limiting factor).
I understand your point, but going from 3 1.67s cobra shots to 4 is going to decrease the frequency of your explosive shots and thus give you more room for arcane shots. After you pass that threshold, more haste means your ES frequency starts increasing again which I believe is your point about haste just increasing the rate at which you consume the extra focus you generate. Since haste also increases passive regen I think you'd still see a slight increase in arcane shot frequency although not much, sure.


Unrelated, changes to OP:
*Updated LnL usage information to recommend ES->Cobra->ES->Arcane->ES, since that seems to be the consensus now. At the least, the closest should be ES->Arcane->ES if high focus, and Femaledwarf.com has a setting to toggle for this. I have a feeling this will all need to be re-evaluated soon, if the ES scaling reduction goes through.
*Added enchant recommendations for 2H weapon and ranged weapons.

Alts: http://www.esoth.com/wow/my-characters
Ion: Along with asking why we fight, and learning that our true enemy is war itself, a major theme of the Mists of Pandaria has been killing turtles
Hunter spreadsheet: http://www.esoth.com/files/mop/at_download/file

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Old 01/12/11, 4:22 AM   #296
kuhvacako
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Hunter
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Zarhym
We made a code change to alter the way haste works for hunters. It should now be a much more favorable stat. We're looking to provide more technical details to explain these changes soon.

I'll concede that the patch notes don't accurately describe this behavior. It's not as simple as adding haste to two abilities that didn't previously have it (because that's not exactly correct). We'll work on the wording for the next update to the notes.
source: MMO-Champion BlueTracker

Very interesting. I'm guessing either increased effect of the cast time on just cobra/steady shot or some kind additional damage co-efficient.

@Perolord. Other people do need to move yet, but do they move as much as you? Good positioning at the start of the fight and good use of Fox and stutterstepping while keeping ES on cd while you do all this will increase your dps massively while moving. Comparing your HC5 dps to raid DPS isn't a good idea either as they arn't comparable.

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Old 01/12/11, 8:11 AM   #297
Dinkadoo
Glass Joe
 
Dinkadoo's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Arygos
Very interesting. I'm guessing either increased effect of the cast time on just cobra/steady shot or some kind additional damage co-efficient.
My best guess is to make haste also restore more focus with each cobra or steady shot cast.

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Old 01/12/11, 8:46 AM   #298
Conscience
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Hunter
 
Haomarush (EU)
Originally Posted by Dinkadoo View Post
My best guess is to make haste also restore more focus with each cobra or steady shot cast.
I thought of that, too, but that would result in some serious double-dipping, since 10% more haste already results in 10% more focus regained, if you're chaining cobra/steady. Of course, as far as SV and BM are concerned, one has a rather strict five second window, so often times more haste might not result in more focus through focus shots.

MM, on the other hand, has a nine, or even ten, second window - so it becomes less important to fit everything in there perfectly. So for MM, haste would get awfully strong - I suspect that it already is, though, which wouldn't make adjustments to our haste-scaling very important as soon as all specs are roughly on equal ground, because desiring different stats would also add a different feel to the specs then, where MM had a more spammy nature, SV a more hard hitting one.

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Old 01/12/11, 9:00 AM   #299
matlab
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Dinkadoo View Post
My best guess is to make haste also restore more focus with each cobra or steady shot cast.
Just tryed on PTR.

I've shot 90 CS and got regened 909 Focus from CS.
The tooltip still shows 9 Focus at 887 haste rating (+21.15% haste) but
909/90 = 10.1

9*(1+21.15%) = 9*1.2115 = 10.9

so I suppose haste will just multiply the focus regenerated.

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Old 01/12/11, 9:10 AM   #300
26thraider
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Runetotem (EU)
So the effect is basically doubledipping? You didn't have any sort random focus generation happen (just to be sure)?

Previously all Hunters got 17 focus per cast of a focus shot (and with Haste this was achieved faster), but now the focus granted by shots increase too.
Hm, I get the feeling that it won't really impact Survival all that much. Aside from having slightly less of a pushback on Black Arrow usage.

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