[Cataclysm] - Survival Hunter - Page 21

kuhvacako · 01/12/11, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Dinkadoo

My best guess is to make haste also restore more focus with each cobra or steady shot cast.

I dismissed that cause of the slam comment previously made in an earlier blue post, but it's looking the way its going. Maybe slam will generate additional rage based on haste? Not sure how warrior dps rage gen works now its 'normalized'

matlab · 01/12/11, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by 26thraider

You didn't have any sort random focus generation happen (just to be sure)?

How can I check it to be sure?
I've just shot the CS without using Rapid fire or any other (random) haste effects, no pet active.
then I've checked on Recount the number of CS and the Focus generated from them.

***

From combatlog I noticed :

router logs # cat WoWCombatLog.txt | grep Testlab | grep "Cobra Shot" | grep SPELL_DAMAGE -c
55
router logs # cat WoWCombatLog.txt | grep Testlab | grep "Cobra Shot" | grep SPELL_ENERGIZE -c
63

so my CS's have done damage 55 times and energized 63.
(there were no miss)

(numbers are different from previous example since I've done different tests)

so 63*9 = 567 total focus

567 / 55 = 10.31

seems we have some free -random- ENERGIZE due to haste ?

Xialas · 01/12/11, 11:08 AM

The end result is hopefully more focus and less cobra shot casts, but hasn't the math shown that more cobra shots are slightly better than focus dumping with AS, therefore focus capping isn't so bad if everything (i.e. ES and BA) is on cooldown? Correct me if I'm wrong.

A blue post in the Hunter's forum:

The patch isn't finished. Our intent is to bring Survival DPS down to the level of some of the other dps specs while making Marks and BM more attractive in PvE. With pure DPS classes it is probably impossible to engineer a three-way tie on all encounters. However, we think we can make them close enough so that players can choose to play their favorite without feeling like they are a burden on the rest of the group.

For an overall approach, we made a few changes that will buff Survival, or even hunters in general. First, focus generation was lower as a result of a bug with haste buffs such as Hunting Party. We've fixed that bug, so focus generation will be higher now when that buff is present (presumably all the time for Survival). Second, we made Steady Shot scale with haste, which will let hunters get more attacks in overall and have more focus with which to do so. These changes would have been a net buff for Survival without additional nerfs to compensate.

We also changed Cobra Shot and the warrior ability Slam to scale with haste. This does not mean all physical cast-time abilities will automatically scale with haste though.

In my own testing I'm also finding that I'm getting focus faster as well. They state that this will be able to give us more focus to attack with, but this ends up being enough for an arcane shot every other rotation, which doesn't even out with the nerfs.

On another note, on live my best dps specs (me being entry level heroic geared, mainly 333's and 346's) are SV >= MM >>> BM, SV and MM are reasonably close, SV being about 10.9-11k dps and MM around 10.5k dps. BM is 7.5k on a good day. On PTR, it's MM >> BM > SV, MM for some reason being around 10.2k dps, BM around 8.9k dps and SV around 7.4k dps. Sigh.

So does this change the rotation? Will we be using AS now because it's one of the only shots that didn't get nerfed? All in all, what does more focus mean for SV hunters?

Edit: Typo and clarification

♦ Tobin · 01/12/11, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by matlab

seems we have some free -random- ENERGIZE due to haste ?

The additional focus we are seeing on PTR is passive regen if WoL is any indication. I performed 15m DPS tests on PTR and live realms and active regen from CoS and Thrill of the Hunt were nearly identical. The "ENERGIZE" you refer to appears consistently in both logs.

CompareBot link: Roll Initiative Tools :: CompareBot!

Its important to note that the summary DPS is wrong. The live realm parse did not include an additional >2K DPS from my pet.

Noleafclover · 01/12/11, 12:42 PM

Hm, I get the feeling that it won't really impact Survival all that much. Aside from having slightly less of a pushback on Black Arrow usage.

Oh it will. ES will lose roughly 25% of it's damage while Cobra and AS will not only lose none of it, but Cobra will actually become more powerful. It will play merry hell with our neat, tidy 6-second rotation. Hitting ES exactly on cooldown will no longer be so important. My best guess is we will see much more freestyle rotations and dumping surplus focus will once again become important. Can't say I'm unhappy to see that.

dragoonvengance · 01/12/11, 5:12 PM

For the "scaling with haste" another valid option is that the damage will increase with the more haste that is given. Which seems like a better concept then double dipping focus, but apparently from what blue posters have been saying it's not fully implemented yet.

Bullshot · 01/12/11, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by dragoonvengance

For the "scaling with haste" another valid option is that the damage will increase with the more haste that is given. Which seems like a better concept then double dipping focus, but apparently from what blue posters have been saying it's not fully implemented yet.

Well, fellow hunters, it was fun... - Forums - World of Warcraft

Nothing's changing, it's just a new method to reduce the cast time. It is kinda weird that they used this as a bit of an offset for the nerfs though when nothing is actually changing.

26thraider · 01/12/11, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Noleafclover

Oh it will. ES will lose roughly 25% of it's damage while Cobra and AS will not only lose none of it, but Cobra will actually become more powerful. It will play merry hell with our neat, tidy 6-second rotation. Hitting ES exactly on cooldown will no longer be so important. My best guess is we will see much more freestyle rotations and dumping surplus focus will once again become important. Can't say I'm unhappy to see that.

That has more to do with the reduction on ES, rather than the percieved bonus to Cobra Shot (which apparently is non-existant), which was what I commented on. On the whole, Survival will change a fair bit, but the actual benefits we gain, are not going to be of any significant impact.

cadavus · 01/12/11, 6:40 PM

An interesting note if all of the changes go live.

If you have a ton of excess focus to dump, then KC will now be better than AS or CS to do it. With my crappy gear, AS was hitting for around 7200 and KC was hitting for 7600 according to FD. Add 20% onto KC, and it goes up to 9000ish. If you have 2 extra talent points (which you might), you can bump KC's crit by 10% as well, bumping that up to around 9900. It is real costly focuswise (40 focus vs 22 for AS), but at the end of fights it might be worth throwing in.

Ardeaf · 01/12/11, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by cadavus

An interesting note if all of the changes go live.

If you have a ton of excess focus to dump, then KC will now be better than AS or CS to do it. With my crappy gear, AS was hitting for around 7200 and KC was hitting for 7600 according to FD. Add 20% onto KC, and it goes up to 9000ish. If you have 2 extra talent points (which you might), you can bump KC's crit by 10% as well, bumping that up to around 9900. It is real costly focuswise (40 focus vs 22 for AS), but at the end of fights it might be worth throwing in.

KC would have to do twice as much damage as AS to even be considered worth it. The only time KC would be better than AS is if your pet is around the corner and you can't target the boss or if there is literally only 2 seconds left in the fight and you have to burn through your focus fast... and even then, the difference is pretty much negligible. So negligible that I wouldn't even put KC on my bars as SV.

Lilyana · 01/12/11, 11:53 PM

January 12th changes are worthy of note: Public Test Realm Patch 4.0.6 Notes - Updated Jan. 12 - World of Warcraft

In particular:

Autoshot while moving.
15% extra damage on arcane.
15% nerf to BA.
15% nerf to EX.

This is much more welcome in terms of theory. With the fix to focus we may find both the Arcane Shot Glyph and this buff to be welcome alongside more time to actually cast arcane (a rotation could look like CS > CS > AR > EX).

I tried replacing our current raid loot with custom loot on femaledwarf (just copying the stat allocation with the next tier of raiding's item level) and found 5% a pretty harsh nerf to agility still. I feel if this was 3% we would break even scaling with the next tier of raid gear. I'll post a table soon once I've worked out how to export the data.

26thraider · 01/13/11, 12:10 AM

Also worth mentioning, Serpent Spread is back to unlimited. This however suggest that the previous nerf was too hard, and they are merely looking at another venue to reduce the AoE capacity. But really, I can hardly imagine it can be worse than the previous attempt.

Very interesting AS buff. This, I imagine is to kill off the current 'Careful Aim' situation, as well as buff the two specs that rely more significantly on this shot. But it is most welcome for Survival as well, as this will make it a worthwhile focusdump again. Capping focus should be bad. Now they only need to remove Arcane from LnL and focusmanagement becomes an absolute blast (I still wonder why it is part of LnL).
The lowering of the nerfs to both BA and ES is most welcome, 15% is going to be tough, no doubt, but both will obviously still be more than worth it. I have a hunch though, that with the glyph the new AS might have been encroaching on ES. And while limited penalty for capping focus is bad, this would be way worse. The BA change is a little strange though. The first change to it listed a 25% reduction to base damage, then 25% flat (assumed to still be base damage) and now 15%. Could it be that it is fully nerfed by 15%?
Autoshot while moving will be most welcome, though in PvE it isn't all that important. But for the PvP crowd I think things might get very interesting. One issue I can see though, I use moving to stop the risk of picking up CCed adds and avoid ninjapulls when my current target gets low, this will naturally offset that. But I suppose it is merely a time issue.

davepoobond · 01/13/11, 12:19 AM

I don't think anyone brought this up, but I read the "scale with haste" thing for steady/cobra shot as an increase in the focus given per shot. Is that not what they mean?

26thraider · 01/13/11, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by davepoobond

I don't think anyone brought this up, but I read the "scale with haste" thing for steady/cobra shot as an increase in the focus given per shot. Is that not what they mean?

The latest blue comments on the matter indicate that it is merely a change in how Haste is implemented for the shots. This naturally opens up basically any idea floating around. Really, it is rather confusing at this time and it is better to await the eventual implementation.

Sebudai · 01/13/11, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ardeaf

KC would have to do twice as much damage as AS to even be considered worth it. The only time KC would be better than AS is if your pet is around the corner and you can't target the boss or if there is literally only 2 seconds left in the fight and you have to burn through your focus fast... and even then, the difference is pretty much negligible. So negligible that I wouldn't even put KC on my bars as SV.

It is more complicated than this. GCDs are as much of a resource as focus is. So while two Arcane Shots do more damage than a Kill Command for roughly the same amount of focus, they also take twice as many GCD's. Using Kill Command over two Arcane Shots gives you an extra GCD that can be devoted to Cobra Shot, so you have to add 1 seconds worth of Cobra Shot damage and focus regeneration to Kill Command's numbers when making this comparison. I don't know if this actually makes Kill Command worth it in this theoretical situation, I'm just pointing it out. It probably doesn't matter since they're now buffing Arcane Shot as well.